More discussion on non-lead ammo - New York Times

BWALKER77 said:
Why would that be the case? They make copper bullets every application imaginable.
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No, they don't make copper bullets for lead bullets. That's sort of the point. That's part of the deal. I design my own moulds, cast my own bullets, load the over black powder in the traditional fashion. None of that functions with copper. Indeed, a groove+ diameter bullet will not even chamber in many of my rifles - and the steel in the barrels of some of them (see photo above for example) will not stand up to copper anyway. It's a very different game.

A copper round ball in a 72" twist roundball flintlock? I don't think so.

The vast majority of people here are 100% behind the latest and greatest technology. I'm just not one of them, although I like some of it very much (e.g., binoculars, clothing, boots). So, the copper thing will squeeze me out.
 
I used the Nosler E-tip for the first time this year on a mule deer buck and cow elk. Both animals were double lunged, the buck didn’t know he was hit and needed follow up. The cow elk went 20-30 yards and then started rolling downhill, expiring in less than a minute.
I’ll use them again!
 
I ordered nosler accubonds and etips this year to try out of my 300 win mag both 180 grain. There wasn't any notable differences in accuracy so I am sticking with the E-tip for many reasons. 1 I have seen how little lead it takes to kill birds. 2 I don't want any trace amounts of lead in my food. 3 they cost less than accubonds. 4 if it ever does come to mandatory non lead bullets I already have one that works.
 
I started using Barnes(copper) bullets 5 years before the Azone ban went into effect. Maybe 20 years ago. Steel in the shotgun for birds & such,not much bird shooting any more.

They shot better than partitions & full lead I have used & dropped everything I have shot at since with them. 30 cal going in,3/4" going out.
I use AB's now,& they are mostly copper.
I keep all the other lead ammo for my rifle for varmits,just in case & 2 legged range practice. I do use partitions in my 30/30.
Barnes sabot in the MZ.
 
I have used Barnes for years with great results. One recovered 225 grain bullet weighed 225 grains.

Like the carrot approach the Oregon Nature Conservancy is using.
 
BrentD said:
So, the copper thing will squeeze me out.
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I don't imagine lead will ever be banned nation wide, at least not in your lifetime, I imagine 20 years down the road it will just be harder to find factory loaded ammo in lead. I don't see that having much of an effect on guys like you.

Out of curiosity, would it be possible to use nickle, tungsten, tin, zinc etc. in your guns? I have heard of guys experimenting with various alloys and I know at least one company makes non-lead roundballs...

http://tomboboutdoors.com/products/


or if DIY is more your thing...
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/
 
I have no doubt technology will save you brent. They will develop a lead-like material for your super cool old guns.
 
wllm1313 said:
I don't imagine lead will ever be banned nation wide, at least not in your lifetime, I imagine 20 years down the road it will just be harder to find factory loaded ammo in lead. I don't see that having much of an effect on guys like you.

Out of curiosity, would it be possible to use nickle, tungsten, tin, zinc etc. in your guns? I have heard of guys experimenting with various alloys and I know at least one company makes non-lead roundballs...

http://tomboboutdoors.com/products/


or if DIY is more your thing...
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/
Click to expand...
Bismuth might work. It's not much less dense and is malleable. I use it where required for birds and IIRC the shot/shells are approved in older guns.
 
neffa3 said:
I have no doubt technology will save you brent. They will develop a lead-like material for your super cool old guns.
Click to expand...

I love your optimism, though I don't share it. In part, the demand will never be enough to see anything serious.

And then there is the cost.

1-pointer, Bismuth might work. Normally it is alloyed with tin, as is lead. But it tends to be brittle.

Then imagine the cost. At $175/lb and I get about 12-14 bullets to the pound, depending on the bullet, it breaks the bank, even for hunting, never mind practice and, god forbid, competition. I shoot several hundred pounds of lead per year in rifles (more in shotguns and pistols - but that is not serious shooting for me)

Shooting with blackpowder and paper patched bullets requires the lead to bump up and fill the lands. I shoot a .443" bullet wrapped with 0.007" of paper to fit in a standard .450/.458" bore. This is true of muzzleloaders as well as cartridge rifles. bullets that are .458" in diameter will not even chamber in my rifles. Bullets weigh 480-540 grs usually. Depending on application.

45-100-550-cart.jpg
 
Which cooper bullet has the best BC for a 7mm bullet? I’m currently using 160gr Accubonds.
 
BrentD said:
I love your optimism, though I don't share it. In part, the demand will never be enough to see anything serious.

And then there is the cost.

1-pointer, Bismuth might work. Normally it is alloyed with tin, as is lead. But it tends to be brittle.

Then imagine the cost. At $175/lb and I get about 12-14 bullets to the pound, depending on the bullet, it breaks the bank, even for hunting, never mind practice and, god forbid, competition. I shoot several hundred pounds of lead per year in rifles (more in shotguns and pistols - but that is not serious shooting for me)

Shooting with blackpowder and paper patched bullets requires the lead to bump up and fill the lands. I shoot a .443" bullet wrapped with 0.007" of paper to fit in a standard .450/.458" bore. This is true of muzzleloaders as well as cartridge rifles. bullets that are .458" in diameter will not even chamber in my rifles. Bullets weigh 480-540 grs usually. Depending on application.
Click to expand...

https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/
 
yup, i know it's there. But think about the costs, nevermind the performance with 12 bullets to the pound.
 
I think lead in slower, more antiquated cartridges isn't shedding as much mass as high velocity rounds. It would be interesting to see what the weight of a 505 grain projectile out of a 45-70 retains after taking a critter, like a moose.

The larger, heavier bullet is not moving at fast speeds, and as such, isn't going to fragment nearly as much as a jacketed bullet designed to expand rapidly and dramatically. I too have rifles that I can't shoot copper out of, but it's not going to stop me from hunting, especially since I rarely pull the trigger anyway. :D
 
BrentD said:
yup, i know it's there. But think about the costs, never-mind the performance with 12 bullets to the pound.
Click to expand...

It's not $175 a pound though, and for hunting I don't think you'd be firing hundreds of bullets each year. Develop your load, check your zero on sights, and use the lead for practice.
 
Ben Lamb said:
It's not $175 a pound though, and for hunting I don't think you'd be firing hundreds of bullets each year. Develop your load, check your zero on sights, and use the lead for practice.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are right. My typo. It is that price (more or less) for 10# which is the quantity I normally buy.

I'd be firing hundreds of rounds to get the hardness right, and it may not even be possible in the end. The alloy is what I do is temperamental to say the least.
 
Ben Lamb said:
I think lead in slower, more antiquated cartridges isn't shedding as much mass as high velocity rounds. It would be interesting to see what the weight of a 505 grain projectile out of a 45-70 retains after taking a critter, like a moose.

The larger, heavier bullet is not moving at fast speeds, and as such, isn't going to fragment nearly as much as a jacketed bullet designed to expand rapidly and dramatically. I too have rifles that I can't shoot copper out of, but it's not going to stop me from hunting, especially since I rarely pull the trigger anyway. :D
Click to expand...



You are right about that. The infamous Minnesota x-ray study showed exactly that. Very little lead fragmentation from lead bullets when fired from slow firearms. However, there are exceptions when a bullet hits a major bone just right and does bust up.

As for what they look like after passing through a few animals, I can address that pretty directly.

Moose
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7311

African plains game
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=753

I thought there were photos and weights for Africa bullets, but I just reskimmed the link and saw that there were no photos of the bullets, so here they are
The bullet on the far right was taken from the springbok and the second from the right came from an eland. The latter had very high weight retention, but I don't recall the number. The former, was around half or even less. Original weight was 535, alloy was 30:1, I believe.
Africa%20Bullets%20small.jpg[img]
 
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First year using copper bullets in my rifles. 2 shots 2 deer. Only recovered one bullet that went the full length of a mule deer buck at 341 yds out of a .308. Same round on a whitetail doe 162 yds took out the shoulder and she was DRT. I must say the damage was not near as devastating as a lead core bullet. Extremely happy with the switch.
 
Ben Lamb said:
I think lead in slower, more antiquated cartridges isn't shedding as much mass as high velocity rounds. It would be interesting to see what the weight of a 505 grain projectile out of a 45-70 retains after taking a critter, like a moose.

The larger, heavier bullet is not moving at fast speeds, and as such, isn't going to fragment nearly as much as a jacketed bullet designed to expand rapidly and dramatically. I too have rifles that I can't shoot copper out of, but it's not going to stop me from hunting, especially since I rarely pull the trigger anyway. :D
Click to expand...

Intuitively thats sound good. However I have seen muzzle loader bullets fragment significantly when hitting nothing more substantial than rib bones.
 
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