Can we learn to live with wolves again?

onpoint said:

This kinda' shit annoys some, confuses others, and can actually make some folk's eyes glaze over. Show 'em a 350" bull - they snap right back............................

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So what kind of Camo should I get for late rifle season?

schmalts said:

Outside of a place like Yellowstone I have no use for them in the lower 48.

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These kinds of statements really used to piss me off because they are rooted in ignorance and a grade school level biology education which equates prey species populations to be solely controlled by predators. I have always been a vocal supporter of native wildlife. Recently, however, I realize I will not change any minds in people. So, thus, I just go along with their beliefs. I am pretty sure Schmalts is from Wisconsin, so here is a word of advice to you: yes wolves have decimated the deer population in the north. Do NOT waste your time hunting anywhere in northwest Wisconsin, the wolves have killed everything. Also, the Indians speared all the Walleyes so don't bother coming up here to fish either.

BWALKER77 said:

Have you ever set foot in northern Wis or MI's UP?

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Yea deer are practically extinct up here

Northwoods Labs said:

they are rooted in ignorance and a grade school level biology education

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Ignorance goes both ways - opponents may not share your view of biology, but this post seems to suggest you may be ignorant to the day to day reality of resident western ranchers. While us flat-lander tag-hunters lament "nature" from our living rooms, it's the locals who deal daily with livestock and other associated problems. As with most things, the truth typically lies towards the middle.

VikingsGuy said:

Ignorance goes both ways - opponents may not share your view of biology, but this post seems to suggest you may be ignorant to the day to day reality of resident western ranchers. While us flat-lander tag-hunters lament "nature" from our living rooms, it's the locals who deal daily with livestock and other associated problems. As with most things, the truth typically lies towards the middle.

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Ranchers are compensated for their losses. Every business has risks. Ranchers get plenty of help from the government. I am certainly familiar with wolves on the landscape. Where I live there are more wolves than anywhere in the west currently. My view of biology is not based on opinion, but with facts and research on the subject.

Northwoods Labs said:

Ranchers are compensated for their losses. Every business has risks. Ranchers get plenty of help from the government. I am certainly familiar with wolves on the landscape. Where I live there are more wolves than anywhere in the west currently. My view of biology is not based on opinion, but with facts and research on the subject.

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I agree, if I run a gas station it has risks and if robbed insurance pays - but I still prefer robbery be illegal. As for science, true science is an informed opinion that stands the test of many years and even then is often proven wrong (I notice we don't spend a lot of time worrying about if there is sufficient 'ether' at altitude to sustain large elk).

Snarky aside, do you guys breed american-style labs or english-style? Either way - I love me a good lab!

Northwoods Labs said:

Yea deer are practically extinct up here

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Cheers for your deer hunting.

It is interesting, considering all the effort Wisconsin DNR biologists and our RMEF money placed to assist your state rebuild the elk potential.
1995 - 25 Elk were re-introduced.

1998 - Dr. Anderson (leading Biologist) projected within 11 years - Elk would number 500.

2010 - Elk numbered 131 - the goal yet to achieve the 200 elk bench mark to begin a first ever extremely limited elk hunt. Those most involved shared their frustration and said they were disappointed in the effort's result thus far. One biologist stated it was a "one step forward, two steps back" due to the number one cause of depredation... Wolves with Bears as a distant number two and vehicle collisions as number three.

2015 - 130 Elk with the DNR, Tribal Staff, and RMEF hard at preserving the elk. Hope for 35 calves born... Still working off 20+ years ago of constant human support from the original reintroduction of Elk. The constant human effort to disburse the elk as that seems to reduce the wolves and bears kill rate.

In fact, they went further to share that wolves were making it a more difficult challenge as now the mortality rate of elk increased due to wolves changing their tactics from going after bulls to specifically targeting cows and even more specific, cows carrying and calves.

Forward onto this year... Finally they believe this year they will crest the magical number, 200 with the calves born AND a second reintroduction of elk from Kentucky. Due to the frequent Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation members financial support (of which I and many here are proud members) and the RMEF Wisconsin volunteers, RMEF will be allotted 1 tag to raffle off, I believe only available to Wisconsin Residents though I could be wrong, Tribal involvement around the Clam Lake area will receive the majority of tags with a few available to Wisconsin residents. A total of TEN tags. This is a great step and a means to generate funding to continue their heavy support for these elk. If I read correctly, outside the one tag for RMEF to raffle, There are a total of nine tags. Pretty cool.

It is amazing, the intense assistance by WI DNR, Tribal and RMEF efforts... 1995 to present and it may break the 200# mark, finally!

Regarding the evolved wolf tactics used where DNR biologist have identified the specific targeting of cows and cows carrying, here is their quote;

Stowell says they have also seen a shift in how wolves are targeting elk. From 2003 to 2008, elk mortality from wolves was 80 percent male and 20 percent female elk, and the males were mostly older calves or young bulls. "Now it seems the wolves have developed skills in testing and picking out vulnerable calves and cows and are apparently leaving the bulls alone," said Stowell. He reports that during the past two years, 10 of the 19 elk killed by wolves have been female and six of those were of breeding age.

In May of 2009, for example, three cows were killed by wolves, all with a 92 percent likelihood of being pregnant. That summer three calves – all one to two months old – and two yearlings and a 16- to 17-year-old cow were killed by wolves. The trend is especially troubling for biologists who value cows based on their potential for producing calves and increasing the herd.

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Wolves are darn smart! I hope the funding continues. If I understand correctly, $7 of each $10 per drawing goes directly to the ELK human support. I fear the day that funding gets siphoned off to other WI gov't entities, etc.

Take into account within Wisconsin, the large quantity of livestock killed by wolves and as an example, 47 hunting dogs killed just in 2017 alone has sparked a vital need to crack down on the wolf count.
Hopefully the increased pressure will reduce the Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife's, et al's crappy judicial obstructionism death grip. About time to kick them to the curb!

Best to you, Northwoods Labs and your Elk reintroduction! As a proud member of RMEF - I sure hope our efforts were not done in vain with WI DNR budget cuts that may harm the intense ELK / human involvement. It is the only aspect keeping those elk slowly recovering. Without humans dispersing the elk to reduce the mortality rate attributed to wolves and bears, the elk, I fear will fizzle away. Too much human effort to see this crap out. They need to aggressively counter the wolves and bears assault on their rebuild.

Sytes, thanks for the summary of RMEF and other efforts. Great illustration of how expensive and challenging it is to un-extinct a species from a region. Good luck on that project, it sounds like people from all walks are pitching in. That may be the greatest achievement of all.

Northwoods Labs said:

These kinds of statements really used to piss me off because they are rooted in ignorance and a grade school level biology education which equates prey species populations to be solely controlled by predators.

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LOL. Just because someone does not want wolves where they live outside YNP does not mean they are ignorant or all the other lame attempt at insults you came up with there.

Feel free to be a vocal supporter of native wildlife, but if you are expecting native species back in historic range not everyone is going to agree with you and you are likely going to end up disappointed. The days of wolves, buffalo, griz, etc roaming much of the country are over. For example look at this griz map showing the historic range.

BrentD said:

Sorry you think so, Greenhorn. Perhaps you can tell me exactly what YOU think that makes you so much better informed.

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I don’t have to tell you. You told me ..

BrentD said:

"Out of control" is the phrase that comes up whenever someone sees 1 wolf, or can't fill a half dozen doe tags in a couple of hours. The only thing that relates to "control" is what abundances are relative to what the speaker's idea of optimal numbers should be (usually ZERO). Meanwhile, we all dream of hunting like Lewis and Clark saw it, when wolves and bears and lions were "out of control" (by definition). We have huge ungulate populations all over the country. In many cases, much larger numbers that L & C ever saw. And yet, people want even more. In the middle of wolf-central Wyoming and Montana, elk hunting is excellent right now.

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BrentD said:

You certainly have no problem finding an abundance of huge bucks and bulls every year. Are you really feeling so challenged by wolves?

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"An abundance"? Every year? In western MT I’ve taken 2 elk in the last 6 years. This rifle season I've seen 2 bulls on public land (a spike and one nice bull). Last year I saw 1 elk total and I shot it. I've cut 2 elk tracks while hunting this fall. I’ve seen 3 mule deer bucks. I've got 24 days hunting into this year's general season. Wolves have made things extremely challenging where I choose to hunt. I have not seen any wolf tracks this year. Over the last three years, wolves were really making the rounds. Why have they left? There’s nothing to eat. I could, though, pick a different area, maybe get my checkbook out or chum up to a rancher out here - there's no shortage of elk in the local district I hunt. They are jam packed in the foothills, amidst houses, roads, and center pivot fields by the hundreds. I could hop over the hill and enjoy participating in the “record setting” elk hunts going on in the upper Madison flats with all the hunters, and wolves roaming around amidst them. Or maybe I can just really lower the bar and shoot a cow from a sniveling farmer’s field this February. After all, there’s so many elk, they are leaving the season open for cows until February 15th. Elk numbers are STRONG. There are no doubt a lot of factors involved but wolves have certainly put gasoline on the fire to help speed things right along - the private land harboring, in particular.

BrentD said:

You are quick to insult, but you don't offer much else than an insult

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I was not offering an insult. It was a fact. If it hurt your feelers, my apologies.

I’ll say it again, if you’re in Colorado and you enjoy elk hunting – I would say it’s very likely not going to make you happy in the end. Sounds like a terrible idea.

Or maybe take it from some guy sitting in a reading chair over in Iowa who most likely hasn’t experienced blue-ribbon elk hunting on public land and seen it go into a death spiral.

You know it’s bad when your Thanksgiving afternoon hunt turns up a 3 day old elk track, 6 miles in, and you’re excited to get back there, because you know there’s one there.

happy thoughts guys, a wolf ornament.

We could live with them if we could manage them. Government and game agencies have demonstrated they cannot get it done. Until we figure out how to effectively control their numbers, we should save our money.

What Greenhorn has posted is spot on.

Greenhorn,
I'm sorry you suddenly can't find elk. I thought i remembered you and your kids arrowing a number of very nice ones indeed, or were they rifle shot? Or maybe some of both. I don't really keep tabs on your posts, so I simply don't recall the details any more, and must be remembering posts from your glory days. I get your posts confused with Shrapnel's now and again . Oh well, I guess it's over for you. Elk hunting is over. There is no point in it any longer. Hang'em up and just chatter about it on the internet, eh?

Wolves certainly lowered the population of elk some. How much is open to a whole bunch of debate. I'm familiar with the debate, read the primary, know the players, seen the data, and spent a fair bit of time with the WGF wildlife biologist in some of those regions, etc., etc. Or maybe we can all take it from some guy sitting in a reading chair over in Montana who bases everything on his own personal experience last Thursday. Whatever.

As for my personal experiences, I love the way you discredit anything I say simply because I live in Iowa. It is THE classic internet cheap shot, taken from your armchair in Montana. I guess that alone eliminates anything I say (unless, by chance, it agrees with you?). I have hunting Grey's Ridge country before the wolves, the Winds from stem to stern before and after wolves, the Absarokas, and a few other places for elk, not to mention a few other states where wolves are yet to show up. And I've never hunted elk on anything BUT public land. So I've seen pretty good public elk hunting, and killed mostly babies. It's still pretty good elk hunting with about the same hunter success rates as always, and I'll probably continue to kill mostly baby bulls.

But if the elk hunting is no longer good enough for you, then I guess I won't be competing with you for a tag next year. Great!

BrentD, I can't tell you how delightful it is to see your reply, over coffee, as I get ready to head out for the last AM of MT's season. Day 26 for me this season, just rifle season that is.

It's good to hear that you've talked to many people on wolves, all those that matter, and have read all the peer-reviewed studies and data, you've hunted the west "from stem to stern" to come to your vastly knowledgeable opinions.

One thing's for sure, and I've said it already - you're a delusional clueless idiot.

How many days, months, or even years does it take to hunt the wind river range from “stem to stern”? Is that even possible?

That is the best claim you’ve made yet. Legendary.

I bet I’m elk hunting today and you’re not.

Weather appears to be a good day to be out..

Greenhorn said:

BrentD, I can't tell you how delightful it is to see your reply, over coffee, as I get ready to head out for the last AM of MT's season. Day 26 for me this season, just rifle season that is.

It's good to hear that you've talked to many people on wolves, all those that matter, and have read all the peer-reviewed studies and data, you've hunted the west "from stem to stern" to come to your vastly knowledgeable opinions.

One thing's for sure, and I've said it already - you're a delusional clueless idiot.

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Calling names really strengthens ones argument. Do not usually see much of that on here

Northwoods Labs, I think Greenhorn gets a special pass on this forum. Not sure why, but he does. The rules don't seem to apply to him.

Actually, GH, I'm glad you will be hunting. I will be too, though not for elk. It will be windy with some snow, but not much. I live well north of Des Moines. If I don't get anything, I'll blame it on wolves.

GH, you really should thank the wolves for all of your hunting. Back when it was "blue ribbon" hunting, you would have filled your tag in the first hour of the season and then been bored sitting in your reading chair blabblering on the internet about things of which you know nothing. What fun would that be.

good luck.

PS. It's taken me quite a few seasons to hunt the length of the Winds. I apologize if you inferred that I claimed to have hunted them in a week or two. Not so.

An approach similar to Wyomings should be implemented in MT. Around Yellowstone have a limited quota and a free fire zone for the rest of the state. Add helicopter gunning and any other applicable means for the free fire zone.

BWALKER77 said:

Add helicopter gunning and any other applicable means for the free fire zone.

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That will buy you only ill will with the nonhunting but nonanti-hunting crowd that is the majority of voting citizens in this country. Where that might go, you may not want to follow.