New brass prep?

ImBillT said:

No need for a case gauge if you have calipers. A case holder would be required though. I believe gauges are more for setting up sizing dies or checking headspace.

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I misspoke, I use a LE Wilson case trimmer. I have to get the case holder to trim them down. The SAMMI spec is 2.500 case OAL and they are running 2.491 to 2.495. I will run them thru a full length resized to see if they hit that 2.500 mark otherwise I may just trim them all to the 2.491 and start from there.

N2TRKYS said:

Lapua is way over priced. I've had more problems with it than any other brand. Remington is probably my favorite with Norma being a close second. I get excellent brass life out of Remington, Norma, and Nosler.

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You are the first person I’ve heard say they’ve had more problems with lapua brass than anything else. What problems have you encountered?

Fire_9 said:

You are the first person I’ve heard say they’ve had more problems with lapua brass than anything else. What problems have you encountered?

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Dented up necks and body of the brass. Also in constant neck tension. I'm starting to hear folks admit that they're having issues with Lapua brass. Maybe they can right the ship and get it back on track.

Dented necks and bodies are pretty much meaningless to me. I could care less on both fronts AS LONG AS it isn’t so bad that I can’t run it through a full length sizer to fix the neck. I run everything through a full length sized most of the time anyway, so that doesn’t matter. If the neck is so out of round that I have to change dies to fix it, then it’s adding a little time. Still not the end of the world. As far as consistent neck tension, I again have to assume that you’re loading it right out of the box and not sizing your brass first. I always full length size before I trim, so once again, that’s an issue that not only wouldn’t bother me, I would never even have noticed it in the first place. If the only reason you’re buying Lapua brass is to save some steps, then I can see how you would be disappointed, and would point you to Nosler and RWS. Nosler is pretty much fully prepped, and RWS is so dang good it doesn’t need much prep. On the other hand, if you want highly consistent brass that will give you fewer throwaways and easier prep than any domestic brass and is also the hardest brass on the market, the Lapua is the way to go. Norma is slightly more consistent in my experience, but considerably softer. RWS is the closest thing to perfection there is, but still slightly softer than Lapua and WAY more expensive. I use Lapua on things that I intend to hotrod. .308Win for F-TR, I can’t just bump to a 30-06, so maximum pressure is required. Lapua is better. My .223AI for Pdogs, same story, a 22-250 would have less than half the barrel life, but loaded hit the .223AI will match it. For most other cartridges I use Norma or RWS if I can find it and afford it. I never found Lapua to be quite as good as Norma and RWS. Large portions of competitive shooters are limited in cartridge selection which results in the need to hotrod their ammo. Brass that was even harder than Winchester and twice as good was immediately attractive to those shooters. They also maximize the quality of their .220 Russian brass to keep their foothold on the benchrest crowd. Those factors really allowed them to be perceived as the best brass on the market even though there two other manufacturers that may be a little more consistent. Nonetheless, my personal experience with them is that they actually are excellent brass, and in many cartridges are slightly cheaper than Norma.

If you're happy paying a premium price for subpar brass, then go for it. I'm not, so I won't buy Lapua brass unless it's on sale for the same price range as other brass.

I find Nosler brass to be somewhat soft as well. Remington brass IMO is pretty dang good.
How many of you are annealing your brass? Since I started annealing my brass has been A LOT more consistent and lasts a bit longer also.

cahunter805 said:

I find Nosler brass to be somewhat soft as well. Remington brass IMO is pretty dang good.
How many of you are annealing your brass? Since I started annealing my brass has been A LOT more consistent and lasts a bit longer also.

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I'm reluctant too because I've read how critical it is to get exactly the right temperature.

N2TRKYS said:

If you're happy paying a premium price for subpar brass, then go for it. I'm not, so I won't buy Lapua brass unless it's on sale for the same price range as other brass.

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I suppose it depends on how you define subpar. There is no brass cheaper than Lapua that has drilled flasholes. Just eliminating the step of de-burring flasholes is worth $10-$15/ per hundred to me. Next issue is primer pockets. Lapua only takes a light cut to cleanup the rounded corner on most peices, and while there may be a few that take a little more to reach the right depth, it’s a quick easy process. I’ve not used any domestic brass that didn’t take 4-5 times as long tonuniform primer pocket depth. I admit that I haven’t used Remington brass in MANY years because it was sooooo bad. They may have improved their game in recent years if you think they’re okay. Federal is extremely soft. Winchester take way more time to prep and the weight variation is usually tremendous. A dent in the neck or body because it got shipped loose does not equal subpar to me. I’m going to full length size before I trim to length anyway, and I’m also going to fireform all my brass before I use for a comp gun or during load development and sight-in on a hunting.

JLS said:

I'm reluctant too because I've read how critical it is to get exactly the right temperature.

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I messed up some perfectly mediocre 7MM cases doing it in the pan w/a propane torch method for the first time. I think you need to be pretty good with the torch, & have a good understanding of the process before doing it yourself. A teacher would be a good thing for annealing, but it's worth doing.

I've also had very good luck with Remington brass, RWS & Lapua. I've got some Norma 8mm Mauser cases that are over 50 years old and still going strong, even though they're only on their 4th loading of moderate loads. I've shot sub MOA groups with PMC, S&B, Winchester, Federal (FC) brass.

Consistency is the key. Consistency is the key. Consistency is the key.

It's consistency, that's the key.

I didn’t know about RWS brass so I looked it up. $53.60 for 20 pieces of press is ridiculous for a deer/elk rifle. Unless, that is, you bought a lottery ticket in South Carolina recently.

Addicting said:

I didn’t know about RWS brass so I looked it up. $53.60 for 20 pieces of press is ridiculous for a deer/elk rifle. Unless, that is, you bought a lottery ticket in South Carolina recently.

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I loaded cheap stuff for years. Never thought twice about it. RP & Winchester brass did fine for me. I still load RP & Win for my 338, 30-06 & 35 Whelen. I seem to get longer case life out of Remington (RP) than Winchester.

Most reloaders split hairs at the bench so they can split hairs at the range. If you're looking for Minute of Deer, then use what you want and develop the load that you want.

ImBillT said:

I suppose it depends on how you define subpar. There is no brass cheaper than Lapua that has drilled flasholes. Just eliminating the step of de-burring flasholes is worth $10-$15/ per hundred to me. Next issue is primer pockets. Lapua only takes a light cut to cleanup the rounded corner on most peices, and while there may be a few that take a little more to reach the right depth, it’s a quick easy process. I’ve not used any domestic brass that didn’t take 4-5 times as long tonuniform primer pocket depth. I admit that I haven’t used Remington brass in MANY years because it was sooooo bad. They may have improved their game in recent years if you think they’re okay. Federal is extremely soft. Winchester take way more time to prep and the weight variation is usually tremendous. A dent in the neck or body because it got shipped loose does not equal subpar to me. I’m going to full length size before I trim to length anyway, and I’m also going to fireform all my brass before I use for a comp gun or during load development and sight-in on a hunting.

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I don't have the issues with primer pockets and flash holes as you do. My other loosely shipped brass doesn't have the denting issues like Lapua does. Seems odd to pay more for something that can't get to my house in as good or better shape than the cheaper stuff. I load hunting rounds. I haven't noticed enough of a difference in brass weight to worry with that. Now, weight sorting bullets is worth it for me. However, for hunting even it's not that vital.

cahunter805 said:

I find Nosler brass to be somewhat soft as well. Remington brass IMO is pretty dang good.
How many of you are annealing your brass? Since I started annealing my brass has been A LOT more consistent and lasts a bit longer also.

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Yeah for hardness based just on my experience and not any special testing I would rank them like this:
1. Lapua
2. Winchester
3. RWS
4. Most other companies including Norma/Nosler
# last-Federal

I anneal occasionally, mostly when mixing batches of brass that have been fired a different number of times. I don’t mix brands. Lapua and RWS definitely come with the necks already annealed which does yield more reloadings without splitting a neck or having to anneal. Norma/Nosler may anneal as well. I really don’t remember. Winchester definitely does not, and that’s another reason to spend a couple extra bucks in my book. Yeah that one step doesn’t take THAT long, but the steps add up and even at $10/hr all those extra steps can $30/100 pieces pretty quickly. More than that if you take your time. Lots of people just do it watching TV etc., but I’m self employed and married and working on a kid and frankly I don’t have all that time to waste. I find premium brass to be worth the extra in my book. That said, if you have to or just want to, you can make cheap brass shoot just as well if you put in the work and do the sorting. It might take 200 pieces of Winchester to get just as many perfect pieces that are just as close in weight as you would get from 100 pieces of premium brass. That’s also another cost if you’re buying a normal sized batch. Some of the more serious competitive shooters buy 1000 pieces, and when you do that you can weight sort even the worst brass into useable groups with close weights, so that kinda kicks things back in the favor of cheaper stuff, but I don’t buy that much at. A time.

Addicting said:

I didn’t know about RWS brass so I looked it up. $53.60 for 20 pieces of press is ridiculous for a deer/elk rifle. Unless, that is, you bought a lottery ticket in South Carolina recently.

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It’s not that expensive for every cartridge, but I would by no means say it’s going to be worth it to most people or that it’s required for excellent accuracy. It just happens to be one of the only two options that won’t require much/any prep for people whothink Lapua is subpar. I got 90% of mine on clearance or on the secondary market. It is the best unless you have to have the hardness of Winchester or Lapua.

N2TRKYS said:

I don't have the issues with primer pockets and flash holes as you do. My other loosely shipped brass doesn't have the denting issues like Lapua does. Seems odd to pay more for something that can't get to my house in as good or better shape than the cheaper stuff. I load hunting rounds. I haven't noticed enough of a difference in brass weight to worry with that. Now, weight sorting bullets is worth it for me. However, for hunting even it's not that vital.

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Weight sorting is more of a competition thing, and I tend to use the small groups for hunting ammo and large groups for matches, so I’m sorting either way. For hunting guns in a cartridge I don’t have a comp gun in, I don’t weight sort. That said, if you’re going to benefit from weight sorting, the outside of every case has to be the same, so primer pockets all have to be the same depth and burrs have to be removed from flasholes. Norma, Lapua, and RWS use drilled flasholes and take very little time to uniform primer pockets. Most of the rest use punched flasholes so you have to knock off the burr and uniforming primer pockets can take an hour or more on the cheap stuff, instead of 15 minutes in the good stuff. The same story occurs with trimming to length. You only have to knock a few thousandths off the good stuff to make it all the same, but Winchester varies wildly and requires removing a lot more material. Then if you turn necks you’ll find that the cheap stuff is also much less consistent. That inconsistency runs down the whole case wall. Then when I weight sort I’ll get 5-6 groups out of 100 pieces of Winchester and 2-3 groups with the same weight disparity from Norma, RWS or Lapua. One group from Nosler because they already prepped and sorted Norma brass.

Are you getting dents in the body or the shoulder? The neck and shoulder dings in Lapua that aren’t there in the cheap stuff is most likely because Lapua anneal their necks, which results in quite a few mor ereloads before the neck splits. That softness allows them to dent more easily, but it’s actually a great benefit. Norma and RWS polish off the annealing stain, but Lapua leaves it there as a sign that they did it.

ImBillT said:

Weight sorting is more of a competition thing, and I tend to use the small groups for hunting ammo and large groups for matches, so I’m sorting either way. For hunting guns in a cartridge I don’t have a comp gun in, I don’t weight sort. That said, if you’re going to benefit from weight sorting, the outside of every case has to be the same, so primer pockets all have to be the same depth and burrs have to be removed from flasholes. Norma, Lapua, and RWS use drilled flasholes and take very little time to uniform primer pockets. Most of the rest use punched flasholes so you have to knock off the burr and uniforming primer pockets can take an hour or more on the cheap stuff, instead of 15 minutes in the good stuff. The same story occurs with trimming to length. You only have to knock a few thousandths off the good stuff to make it all the same, but Winchester varies wildly and requires removing a lot more material. Then if you turn necks you’ll find that the cheap stuff is also much less consistent. That inconsistency runs down the whole case wall. Then when I weight sort I’ll get 5-6 groups out of 100 pieces of Winchester and 2-3 groups with the same weight disparity from Norma, RWS or Lapua. One group from Nosler because they already prepped and sorted Norma brass.

Are you getting dents in the body or the shoulder? The neck and shoulder dings in Lapua that aren’t there in the cheap stuff is most likely because Lapua anneal their necks, which results in quite a few mor ereloads before the neck splits. That softness allows them to dent more easily, but it’s actually a great benefit. Norma and RWS polish off the annealing stain, but Lapua leaves it there as a sign that they did it.

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I haven't seen any burrs in any of the flasholes. The dents I'm seeing are in the case necks and the body of the cases. Pretty pathetic for a supposedly highend brass. I've never had any new brass, regardless of brand, that I had to trim before my first loading.

I haven't gotten anymore loads out of Lapua brass than I have any other brand.

N2TRKYS said:

I haven't seen any burrs in any of the flasholes. The dents I'm seeing are in the case necks and the body of the cases. Pretty pathetic for a supposedly highend brass. I've never had any new brass, regardless of brand, that I had to trim before my first loading.

I haven't gotten anymore loads out of Lapua brass than I have any other brand.

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Are you looking inside the case at the flasholes or from the outside? The burr is on the inside. You have to look through the case neck to see it. Also, they may shoot out. I really don’t know, but they’re in new brass, but I can’t say I’ve seen them in range pickups. I don’t know if the factory deburrs flasholes on loaded ammo or if they just shoot out.

I put over 30 firings on my last batch of Lapua .308 before I retired it. I can’t do that with any other brands because they require more sizing to prevent a stiff bolt close.

If your only problem with Lapua brass is that some of them have dents in the neck or body, then your definition of subpar has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons that people like Lapua brass. The reason you trim to length has nothing to do with a case being to long. It has to do with all the cases being a different length, and you want them to all be the same length and have the same amount of grab on the bullet, so you size them all, then trim them to the same length and now they all have the same length neck. Primer pocket depth uniforming is a similar story. Primers seared to different depths can yield slight increases in velocity spread, which is important to a comp shooter. Also, different depth primer pockets involve different amounts of brass being weighed on a scale during weight sorting, but because the extra brass is on the outside of the case, it isn’t related to the case’s internal capacity. You have to make them all the same or your weight sorting didn’t do anything but waste your time. Until you go through all the steps of uniforming brass you won’t ever see the big difference in dimensional uniformity between the cheap guys and premium guys. For minute of deer shooting, it’s not required, and I never said it was. But what guys are paying for when they buy premium brass is something different than what you’re looking for. That’s why I asked what your specific complaints were.

Just buying Fed/Rem/Win brass and loading it isn’t gonna make you miss your deer. You can probably shoot it a few times before it has to be trimmed for safety reasons. It’ll probably go 5-10 reloads with no special treatment depending on the cartridge and how hard you push it. In a hunting gun starting with 100 pieces of brass that’s a fair bit of shooting, and with no time spent prepping it there’s not much investment, so it won’t hurt your feelings to throw it away after 5.

In a 6.5SAUM of my buddies Remington brass lasted 23 firings before it split at the neck/shoulder. Primer pockets were still tight. Most people oversize and overwork their brass way to much due to following the basic general directions that come with most die.

WOW! You guy's must all have sub 1/4" thousand yd rifles. I tried that debur the flash hole trick, didn't change one thing. I don't uniform primer pocket's and still manage to get rifle's to go 1/2" now and then. I don't champher case mouth's for the pure joy of doing it, never ever found not doing it a problem. Never noticed that ammo from shinny case's fired better than the same from new case's or even dull case's for that matter. Been my experience that so long as the length of the case's wasn't that critical unless the case was over length. Some of you guy's really make a chore out of loading case's! And in the end most of you still aren't gonna get a one hole group!

Don Fischer said:

WOW! You guy's must all have sub 1/4" thousand yd rifles. I tried that debur the flash hole trick, didn't change one thing. I don't uniform primer pocket's and still manage to get rifle's to go 1/2" now and then. I don't champher case mouth's for the pure joy of doing it, never ever found not doing it a problem. Never noticed that ammo from shinny case's fired better than the same from new case's or even dull case's for that matter. Been my experience that so long as the length of the case's wasn't that critical unless the case was over length. Some of you guy's really make a chore out of loading case's! And in the end most of you still aren't gonna get a one hole group!

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Winters are long in the Northern Rockies, and I'm too old to have kids or try more than once a day.