Montana grizz attack

Bear spray worked
http://www.khq.com/story/39283553/h...f-grizzly-attack-while-bow-hunting-in-montana

Yep. On facebook, I saw the usual idiot comments," You should have had handgun xyz". Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun. Many of these attacks are so fast, that all they can do is take the charge and hope for the best. For anybody that starts down the handgun route, I would like to see them consistently apply a killing shot at a fast target at under 12 yards. Hardly ever happen. These guys did the right thing and survived-without having to explain why they killed a bear, that was just being a bear.

sbhooper said:

Yep. On facebook, I saw the usual idiot comments," You should have had handgun xyz". Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun. Many of these attacks are so fast, that all they can do is take the charge and hope for the best. For anybody that starts down the handgun route, I would like to see them consistently apply a killing shot at a fast target at under 12 yards. Hardly ever happen. These guys did the right thing and survived-without having to explain why they killed a bear, that was just being a bear.

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1. Cite your source for "Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun." Alaskan guides carry firearms as do the researchers for the IGBC.
2. Many of us who train with our handguns can do just that. I just qualified with my LEO service weapon and my subcompact handgun, and both times I had to put several rounds into a small circle with great speed.
3. A dead bear will not attack again. A sprayed bear can and has returned.

I would encourage you to engage in a dialogue about this, instead of drawing a line in the sand and insulting another side. The efficacy of fire arm vs bear spray is not so clear. Bear spray will loose efficacy as the temperature drops (citation) as well as wind driving the cloud, possibly into hunters.
(citiation). Furhtermore, the study widley cited for evidence that spray is more effective has flaws in the study and they won't release the details (citation). Even more, the author of that study has been quoted as saying he would use a gun over spray.

Personally, I carry both, and have used spray over a gun when the situation allowed. But, I have drawn my gun when necessary. I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or. I take both tools with me and train accordingly. What I hope is that others will begin to look at the primary sources and studies themselves and reason out conclusions.

406LIFE said:

1. Cite your source for "Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun." Alaskan guides carry firearms as do the researchers for the IGBC.
2. Many of us who train with our handguns can do just that. I just qualified with my LEO service weapon and my subcompact handgun, and both times I had to put several rounds into a small circle with great speed.
3. A dead bear will not attack again. A sprayed bear can and has returned.

I would encourage you to engage in a dialogue about this, instead of drawing a line in the sand and insulting another side. The efficacy of fire arm vs bear spray is not so clear. Bear spray will loose efficacy as the temperature drops (citation) as well as wind driving the cloud, possibly into hunters.
(citiation). Furhtermore, the study widley cited for evidence that spray is more effective has flaws in the study and they won't release the details (citation). Even more, the author of that study has been quoted as saying he would use a gun over spray.

Personally, I carry both, and have used spray over a gun when the situation allowed. But, I have drawn my gun when necessary. I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or. I take both tools with me and train accordingly. What I hope is that others will begin to look at the primary sources and studies themselves and reason out conclusions.

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X-2

This gun worked, sort of.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/hunter-attacked-by-grizzly-bear-shot-friend/

Could this possibly turn into a different iteration of a recent rehashing of an often reopened topic from the experts at the department of redundancy department?

onpoint said:

Could this possibly turn into a different iteration of a recent rehashing of an often reopened topic from the experts at the department of redundancy department?

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It’s this or “what are the best trekking poles”

406LIFE said:

I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or.

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Definitely^

"I just qualified with my LEO service weapon"... sounds like you have way more experience than most. For the average Joe, spray is much more effective. The guidelines are for efficacy in novice hands, not which is more effective in expert hands. I think of it more, if you had never fired a gun or used spray and you walk into walmart which should you buy.

Personally, I've only shot a handgun 3 or 4 times and with a .45 I couldn't hit a human outline at 20 yards at a range... so yeah I need to carry bear spray. If you were hunting with me I would probably suggest you carry a gun as it seems like you are highly skilled.

tjones said:

It’s this or “what are the best trekking poles”

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For the money, Black diamond trailback flick lock aluminum poles cannot be beaten.

not looking for anyone's honey holes, but....

406LIFE said:

1. Cite your source for "Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun." Alaskan guides carry firearms as do the researchers for the IGBC.
2. Many of us who train with our handguns can do just that. I just qualified with my LEO service weapon and my subcompact handgun, and both times I had to put several rounds into a small circle with great speed.
3. A dead bear will not attack again. A sprayed bear can and has returned.

I would encourage you to engage in a dialogue about this, instead of drawing a line in the sand and insulting another side. The efficacy of fire arm vs bear spray is not so clear. Bear spray will loose efficacy as the temperature drops (citation) as well as wind driving the cloud, possibly into hunters.
(citiation). Furhtermore, the study widley cited for evidence that spray is more effective has flaws in the study and they won't release the details (citation). Even more, the author of that study has been quoted as saying he would use a gun over spray.

Personally, I carry both, and have used spray over a gun when the situation allowed. But, I have drawn my gun when necessary. I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or. I take both tools with me and train accordingly. What I hope is that others will begin to look at the primary sources and studies themselves and reason out conclusions.

Click to expand...

X3

If I were marketing my product “bear spray” it would seem like a good business strategy to have some “studies” out substantiating that my product is more effective than my competitors “firearms”. Furthermore if I am the “bear expert” that loves the bears, it would seem like a good idea to influence these “studies” with my biased expertise. Even further, if I am the game agency that would be responsible for the pr in situations of hunters shooting a GYE yogi, It would be pretty easy to jump on the bandwagon. Just speculation.

I have been to several places in AK, never saw a guide carry spray. Usually a couple small dogs and a really big gun.

I have always viewed bear spray as something geared toward people who eat granola, drive Subaru’s, and tourists surrounding GYE. Not that I don’t carry it, got like 20 cans for free from friends and family that have visited, can’t take it back on the plane, lol. it’s just that if a bear gets a hold of me or someone with me, I want blood..

There's a vast gulf between what different people consider "proficient". I was talking to a friend recently who said he shot his 9mm a lot- it has over three hundred rounds through it. I consider three hundred rounds a pretty good afternoon at the range. I wouldn't consider any amount of ammo my truck can carry without helper springs "a lot". I'm doing a quick range run tomorrow or Wednesday, and it will involve three rifles, a revolver, and at least 300 rounds of ammunition between .375 H&H, 7MM Rem, .270 Win, and .44 Rem Mag.

I do carry bear spray, and I would much rather use it than a firearm. Bears is just being bears, as sbhooper said, and I'd certainly rather they didn't end up dead over it.

That said, I also carry a firearm, and if the situation calls for it I'd go for that instead. Those situations would include high winds, heavy brush, inside a tent, and bears showing predatory rather than defensive behaviors. Both the spray and the handgun have approximately the same effective range- 30-40 feet. I'm under no illusions that I could draw my revolver and place a killing shot in an unexpected charge in heavy cover, but the same goes for the spray. If it comes to that, I'm probably dead no matter what I'm carrying, but I'd certainly feel foolish if I saw the bear first and didn't have any way to respond to a charge that I could see coming.

What most people don't seem to realize is that a handgun, any handgun, is less powerful and less accurate than almost any rifle, and is giving up effectiveness for portability. The guides and researchers that 406LIFE mentioned generally carry rifles, or shotguns with slugs in some cases. For general hunting in Lower 48 grizzly country, I'll carry a handgun, because the likelihood of an encounter is pretty remote. For something like fishing streams in southeast Alaska, I'd be carrying a tactical shotgun with solid copper slugs. For dedicated bear guard duty, I'd be carrying my .375 H&H with an EOTech-style optical sight, only because I don't have a .458. As an encounter becomes more likely, portability becomes less important than firepower.

This is my wife packing out an elk 1/4 about 4 miles from where the Todd Orr incident took place. Note the dark timber to the rear of the pic. Deadfall, dog hair, hard to see very far. An elk kill site very near, which had been there for 24 hours. Bears in "eat to den up mode". She has her hands full of our favorite trekking poles. A bunch of weight on her back. A typical Montana hunting in G bear country scenario. Bear spray, handgun, whatever. The inherent risks are just there. A healthy dose of luck ending up on your side is your best hope, in the unfortunate event. Yes we carry spray, and weapons.
Really conducive to quick reaction time in the event of a bear deal.
That's what bugs me about these threads - not much in the way of reality, just a lot of unqualified talk from the vast majority.........

MTTW said:

At least this guy had a hunting partner with his Fight/Flight instincts properly aligned. Good for him.

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My thoughts as well, a good partner goes a long way in those kind of situations. This topic always brings out the emotions in folks it seems. I am just amazed at how many bears are chewing on people lately. From Alaska to Florida this year. Wisconsin got in on the action and Montana has had at least 3 the last few weeks that I have read about. Plus Wyoming and even Colorado had one going into a hotel.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-bear-attack-leaves-man-with-41-stitches-in-face

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/10/01/bear-attack-wisconsin-hunting-trip/

https://kdvr.com/2018/09/28/12-bear...anley-hotel-colorado-parks-and-wildlife-says/

I was in Cody last week and they have had several in town including a griz behind DQ, and even griz in the corn maze setup for Halloween.

Bears are literally in the news every few days it seems.

406LIFE said:

1. Cite your source for "Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun." Alaskan guides carry firearms as do the researchers for the IGBC.
2. Many of us who train with our handguns can do just that. I just qualified with my LEO service weapon and my subcompact handgun, and both times I had to put several rounds into a small circle with great speed.
3. A dead bear will not attack again. A sprayed bear can and has returned.

I would encourage you to engage in a dialogue about this, instead of drawing a line in the sand and insulting another side. The efficacy of fire arm vs bear spray is not so clear. Bear spray will loose efficacy as the temperature drops (citation) as well as wind driving the cloud, possibly into hunters.
(citiation). Furhtermore, the study widley cited for evidence that spray is more effective has flaws in the study and they won't release the details (citation). Even more, the author of that study has been quoted as saying he would use a gun over spray.

Personally, I carry both, and have used spray over a gun when the situation allowed. But, I have drawn my gun when necessary. I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or. I take both tools with me and train accordingly. What I hope is that others will begin to look at the primary sources and studies themselves and reason out conclusions.

Click to expand...

Salient points 406. :hump:

406LIFE said:

1. Cite your source for "Bear spray has always proven more effective than the average person carrying any kind of gun." Alaskan guides carry firearms as do the researchers for the IGBC.
2. Many of us who train with our handguns can do just that. I just qualified with my LEO service weapon and my subcompact handgun, and both times I had to put several rounds into a small circle with great speed.
3. A dead bear will not attack again. A sprayed bear can and has returned.

I would encourage you to engage in a dialogue about this, instead of drawing a line in the sand and insulting another side. The efficacy of fire arm vs bear spray is not so clear. Bear spray will loose efficacy as the temperature drops (citation) as well as wind driving the cloud, possibly into hunters.
(citiation). Furhtermore, the study widley cited for evidence that spray is more effective has flaws in the study and they won't release the details (citation). Even more, the author of that study has been quoted as saying he would use a gun over spray.

Personally, I carry both, and have used spray over a gun when the situation allowed. But, I have drawn my gun when necessary. I don't see the conversation as having to be either/or. I take both tools with me and train accordingly. What I hope is that others will begin to look at the primary sources and studies themselves and reason out conclusions.

Click to expand...

x20 - nothing more to discuss here.