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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Arrow View Post
    "Make Montana mature buck deer hunting great again!"
    It wouldn't be just about that - 7 weeks of hunting deer still allows all the 2 point happy jacks to get out and kill everything they possibly can. A couple months of hunting does on private, still allows all the doe killers and CWD self-perceived do-gooders to get out and make themselves feel like they are contributing to healthy deer herds, while feeding their families with prime organic, self-harvested, venison.

    Of course the outfitting industry wouldn't like it, and really, all the do-gooders REALLY do want to be out for 3 months shooting every buck and doe possible when it comes right down to it.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by sschultz View Post
    Some of you guys from Montana might know this but can a landowner that puts some of land in Block Management limit hunter to Whitetails only or does only.
    I don't think they can limit it like that. Some BMAs are not open to elk hunting. Some don't allow bowhunting. A lot of them don't participate in shoulder seasons. They can add a statement encouraging the harvest of does like this, which I think is a good idea, but I don't think they can micromanage things to the level of saying "You can shoot this legal deer but not that one". It seems to me that they are being paid to allow public hunting, which is managed by FWP, so they have to give up some control. Otherwise you have landowners saying, only spike whitetails, and they get paid for essentially excluding almost all kills, while the pressure drives the deer over onto their other, outfitted, property. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens verbally on some Type 2 BMAs, though, where you have to contact for permission. Given any system, there will be those who simply have to game it.

  3. #53

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    I’ve hunted a BMA that is known for its antelope and whitetail hunting (that allows elk hunting and has excellent elk that nobody targets)
    They don’t allow mule deer hunting although mule deer is open on a general tag in that unit. 2 of, or 50% of the only 180 bucks I’ve seen in Montana were on that property.

    As for Montana’s deer ‘management’ ...
    It’s easier to find a legal ram in the unlimiteds than it is a nice buck in Montana. That’s the consequence of believing in the God given right to road hunt rutting bucks with rifles OTC.
    Maybe I’m just not putting in the effort necessary to find big deer: as u1299 would say ‘they’re out there, hunt a little harder”
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    It wouldn't be just about that - 7 weeks of hunting deer still allows all the 2 point happy jacks to get out and kill everything they possibly can. A couple months of hunting does on private, still allows all the doe killers and CWD self-perceived do-gooders to get out and make themselves feel like they are contributing to healthy deer herds, while feeding their families with prime organic, self-harvested, venison.

    Of course the outfitting industry wouldn't like it, and really, all the do-gooders REALLY do want to be out for 3 months shooting every buck and doe possible when it comes right down to it.
    That might be a point if Montana was like some other states and allowed unlimited tags. There are, of course, unlimited B tags available in some regions, but they are limited to one region-wide B tag per hunter. So "doe killers" can take up to seven does from high population areas in addition to their general tag or permit, but they have to hunt the entire state to do it. And is feeding your family with "prime, organic, self-harvested venison" supposed to be a bad thing, since only "self-perceived do-gooders" apparently do it?

  5. #55
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    Apr 2015
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    Wenatchee
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    Does MT have a muzzy season and if so where would you place that Greenhorn?
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by scubohuntr View Post
    And is feeding your family with "prime, organic, self-harvested venison" supposed to be a bad thing, since only "self-perceived do-gooders" apparently do it?
    My freezer is bursting at the seams with that stuff and I'm not a self-perceived do gooder. I lost the interest in killing half adult animals with milk on their lips and does a long time ago - I wouldn't know what to do with all the meat. In the name of doing good, managing a balanced age of deer in an area is a good thing. Even if that means you can't hunt and kill everything that walks, for half the year.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    Does MT have a muzzy season and if so where would you place that Greenhorn?
    If I were boss, the muzzy season would be just as long as the rifle season, and take place at the same time. In 1997 I shot an antelope with a muzzleloader at 240 yards. They are a rifle, single shot, period.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    If I were boss, the muzzy season would be just as long as the rifle season, and take place at the same time. In 1997 I shot an antelope with a muzzleloader at 240 yards. They are a rifle, single shot, period.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0faW-LRZU
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  9. #59

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    Greenhorn-It is currently is just as long as the general rifle season lol....240yds???? they are shooting up to 1000yds with some of them now. For the most part they aint primitive weapons anymore. Heck u see guys on TV talking about 80-90 yd shots with their bows

  10. #60

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    If you want to focus on mature bucks of trophy quality rather than opportunity, then you're going to need a helluva lot more limited entry areas. Greenhorn's concept of shutting down the season after 3 weeks of rifle works well in some areas, and I think it wouldn't make much difference in others depending on topography, difficulty of hunt, etc (Backcountry units, etc). I hunt in areas that have adopted this model and there are still plenty of forkies shot every year, road bucks in the back of trucks, etc. I've got an unlimited permit this year, and in that district, no forkie is safe since folks shoot the first legal animal they see, rather than hold out for a mature buck or eat the tag.

    I'm tracking with Kurt here, but I do think we need opportunity in order to get younger kids into the sport, even adult onset hunters. The Montana heritage of kids shooting an immature deer, 7 weeks of general tag hunting, etc are tough things to take away. You're messing with people's history and a lot of memories. That may be accomplished through whitetail, as they tend to be more prolific and less delicate than mule deer.

    If you take the 3 week rifle season and expand it into a few different areas, you'd get more buyin, especially in places that are closer to urban centers. But you'll also have to kill a pile more elk in order to reduce competition for forage, etc - unless MT gets on the bandwagon of helping fund habitat improvement projects like other western states do. We're killing off populations now to fit the existing habitat in some areas, areas that used to be considered prime OTC units where sweat equity would get you a damned nice buck.

    But until there is organized efforts to change the way things are done at the FWP commission level, where opportunity reigns supreme, I think we're just middling around the edges.
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    I do think we need opportunity in order to get younger kids into the sport, even adult onset hunters. The Montana heritage of kids shooting an immature deer, 7 weeks of general tag hunting, etc are tough things to take away. You're messing with people's history and a lot of memories.
    This is what is so frustrating. How much damn "opportunity" does everyone need? Is a "memory" of a whitetail doe hunt with Dad, any less of a memory of a 2 point mule deer hunt killed with your college roommates? It's long past time of "that's the way we've always done it "heritage" crap. I've been hunting deer in MT every year for 38 years and it's completely in the toilet now because of so much resistance to REAL CHANGE.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Eastern Montana
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    322

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    I have a hard time with the fact that most every other state with mule deer has much more stringent season structure or tag allocation, but when these ideas get brought up about changing things in montana, its a big problem. How is 3 weeks at any time of the fall not long enough to kill a deer? I grew up in ND with a 16 day season. I hunted my but off for the 5-6 days off I had every season between school, college, and work and never felt like I didn't have opportunity, but I regularly hear how 3 full weeks isn't even enough opportunity. We could still greatly improve herd health and age structure by changing season length and timing while still allowing a buck tag every year. Sounds like good opportunity to me.

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    In MT each district should be managed specifically for that district. Like that'll ever happen

    If I were boss, general season areas would be September for archery season. Rifle would be Oct 1-20. Zero buck hunting after that, antlerless hunting on private land only all through Nov-Dec.
    I think that's the best idea I've heard but I wonder how many hunters would go someplace else. But I suspect Montana places more value on the economic value of the herd than the health and quality.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    This is what is so frustrating. How much damn "opportunity" does everyone need? Is a "memory" of a whitetail doe hunt with Dad, any less of a memory of a 2 point mule deer hunt killed with your college roommates? It's long past time of "that's the way we've always done it "heritage" crap. I've been hunting deer in MT every year for 38 years and it's completely in the toilet now because of so much resistance to REAL CHANGE.
    I don't disagree, but let's be honest: We're talking about taking something that many people value in order to give value to others. In order to affect real change, you have to recognize their legitimate interests and work with that in order to achieve an outcome that's mutually beneficial. The concept of managing for specific units, for example, does this. So does youth hunts, 3 week seasons, etc. You can provide a mountain of opportunity if you massage each district, but then you'll also be adding 10 pages to the regs, in an era where people are complaining about how complicated they are, and the agency is responding by try to reduce that perceived complication.
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  15. Default

    I've read a lot of good points and valid opinions here and I think everyone, in every state gets down in the mouth about their "FWP", " DNR" et. al.
    The State of Montana has nothing on Michigan.
    Michigan sells 400,000 deer license anually with virtually unlimited Doe permits (all whitetail). Every 10ac piece of private has 2 guys hunting on it! SO please keep some perspective, guys, Montana could be alot worse.

    See you in a couple weeks.

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songdog3060 View Post
    I've read a lot of good points and valid opinions here and I think everyone, in every state gets down in the mouth about their "FWP", " DNR" et. al.
    The State of Montana has nothing on Michigan.
    Michigan sells 400,000 deer license anually with virtually unlimited Doe permits (all whitetail). Every 10ac piece of private has 2 guys hunting on it! SO please keep some perspective, guys, Montana could be alot worse.

    See you in a couple weeks.

    Short of putting a bounty on mule deer or banning coyote hunting and trapping there’s not much Montana could do to be worse for mule deer.
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  17. #67

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    This is indefensible.


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    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    You can provide a mountain of opportunity if you massage each district, but then you'll also be adding 10 pages to the regs, in an era where people are complaining about how complicated they are, and the agency is responding by try to reduce that perceived complication.
    At some point "providing a mountain of opportunity" could be somewhere lower on the rung of priorities, statewide in MT, for mule deer. Regs don't have to be complicated. Look to other states such as Wyoming or Idaho on how to make it work. Reinventing the wheel is not necessary.

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    At some point "providing a mountain of opportunity" could be somewhere lower on the rung of priorities, statewide in MT, for mule deer. Regs don't have to be complicated. Look to other states such as Wyoming or Idaho on how to make it work. Reinventing the wheel is not necessary.
    You've met FWP, right?

    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    This is indefensible.


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    How else can they combat CWD?

  21. Default

    I see, the unlimited"B" in all region 7. After the winter they had, I see your frustration. At least (bare with me), at least in Montana you do not have to purchase a license to shoot Coyotes. IN Michigan its a furbarer license around $25.00

    Having a little discipline on the bucks we shoot would go along way to getting them to 5 or 6 years old. Changing the hunting culture is tough to do we have began to implement manditory antler point restrictions on our deer in certain hunting areas. It is always a very hot topic and highly contested but for us(Michigan) its the only way we think we can change the hunting culture. Here a deer's first set of antlers is a death sentence.
    TO me: this is indefensible .Name:  mi.jpg
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    However I recognize eastern whitetails are not under the same decline as Muleys. Im sensitive to that. I will nit hang my NR tag on a fork horn Muley and I plan to shoot a couple Misssouri breaks coyotes as well. The that said Id still trade Montana for Michigan. Good luck everyone.

  22. #72
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    You can provide a mountain of opportunity if you massage each district, but then you'll also be adding 10 pages to the regs, in an era where people are complaining about how complicated they are, and the agency is responding by try to reduce that perceived complication.
    WA has gone down this path of micro managing each small unit to provide the most opportunity/quality through a combination of general seasons (usually 1-2 weeks long) plus a plethora of "special permits", many of which aren't that special. Our regs are novel in length and extremely difficult for people not already familiar to interpret. I've been hunting for 20 years and I still find new rules almost every year that I wasn't aware of. WA has a real problem recruiting new hunters because of how daunting our regs are. If I were Montana I would keep it simple and reduce overall opportunity for bucks and increase private land opportunity for does.
    Last edited by neffa3; 10-12-2018 at 03:27 PM. Reason: dyslexia
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  23. #73

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    Good conversation.
    Last edited by mtmiller; 10-12-2018 at 02:46 PM.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    WA has gone down this path of micro managing each small unit to provide the most opportunity/quality through a combination of general seasons (usually 1-2 weeks long) plus a plethora of "special permits", many of which aren't that special. Our regs are novel in length and extremely difficult for people not already familiar to interpret. I've been hunting for 20 years and I still find new rules almost every year that I wasn't aware of. WA has a real problem recruiting new hunters because of how daunting our regs are. If I were Montana I would keep it simple and reduce overall opportunity for bucks and increase private land opportunity for does.
    A great portion of the complexity is because of the choose your weapon approach. If you did away with that, and limited hunt units/regions like Wyoming does, the complexity would be greatly reduced. Washington's issues are largely a product of trying to make everyone think they have all sorts of opportunity without really providing it.
    Fear the beard....

  25. #75
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    Jul 2018
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    My body is in Texas, but home is the Big Sky country
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    If I were boss, the muzzy season would be just as long as the rifle season, and take place at the same time. In 1997 I shot an antelope with a muzzleloader at 240 yards. They are a rifle, single shot, period.
    Would you still say that if it was open sites, flintlock/sidelock, patched round ball only?

    I always thought the original purpose of archery seasons/muzzleloaders was to reduce the success rates while allowing the pursuit. Now with compounds sitting at 79% let-off, boasting 7 pin sights, two foot stabilizers, thumb releases, multiple levels on the sight housing, fall away rests, and mechanical broadheads guys are shooting animals at 80 yards on a regular basis. That isn't exactly in the spirit of making the hunt more challenging.

    Why not make the rut hunt a total primitive season? longbows/recurves/flintlocks only.

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