2 gun do-all battery suggestions?

JLS said:

Not everyone has this luxury, hence the point of the discussion.

To the OP, this question has a lot of variables such as:

1) your tolerance to recoil
2) how far you desire to shoot
3) what game do you primarily hunt
4) how heavy of a rifle are you willing to carry
5) do you reload

I've killed a number of elk with a .243. Is it the best? No, but it damned sure works. Pretty hard to go wrong with what you proposed. I really don't like recoil, I don't like carrying heavy rifles, and I don't care to shoot over 500 yards, so that greatly influences my choice of chamberings. I'll shoot anything in the lower 48 with my 6.5CM.

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I 2nd this, with a good 130-140 grain bullet it is hard to beat. The two elk it killed this year dropped with in 30 yards. The 129 ABLR is not a bullet I will ever use again unless I want to shoot prairie dogs. To the OP, each rifle is different but I couldn’t find factory ammo in the heavier grains that shot well in a 6.5 and handloads were the answer. For anything bigger than a elk I would want to step it up to at least a .30 cal. I think your on the right path in your selection.

BrentD said:

Which one would you use to hunt squirrels and rabbits?

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Shotgun!

22 mag and a 308.

Changed my mind, 222 Rem and a 30-06.

Changed my mind, 243 and a 30-06.

Changed my mind, ah h*ll, you get the point!

BrentD said:

Which one would you use to hunt squirrels and rabbits?

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I could be off base, but I think the OP was basing his choices on leaning towards big game. To hunt everything big to small would require a rimfire, a shotgun and a centerfire. Just me though. mtmuley

Somebody, somewhere actually considers squirrels and rabbits "game"??

3855win .... I'm right there with you on the Weatherby solution!

I have matching Vanguards in 257 & 300
and they've been excellent shooters and a solid value

Right now I have 2 rifles and loads that I have full confidence will take anything I'd ever want to hunt.
Browning x-bolt in 26 Nosler - 140gr Accubond @ 3300fps
Ruger American in 270 Win - 140gr Accubond @ 2925fps

Kind of redundant I know but state regs require me to use a 270 cal or larger rifle for one of the elk tags I'm applying for. Benefit of that is I can hunt with my 270 and shoot all the deer and pigs my heart desires without having to worry about burning up the barrel before I hopefully draw that elk tag.

Looking at Fin's list, I'd go with the 7mm08 or 308 for the benefit of being a short action though you couldn't go wrong with the 270 Win. I'd personally want the 7mm08 to be in a twist rate that allowed me to shoot 150-160gr bullets because I think that's where that cartridge really shines as far as bullet weight/BC vs speed to get the best performance possible. I have similar thoughts with using 130s in the 270 when you can get a 140gr load while sacrificing maybe 75-80 fps in velocity and get better terminal results. For a 22" Creedmoor I think the 129-130s is a good choice though I'd go with the standard Accubond like Addict hinted at for anything bigger than deer, I'm just not convinced the ABLRs will hold up to tough targets. For the 140s you really need that extra 4" of barrel to get the most out of it

Big Fin said:

Interested to continue following the discussion. Thanks to the original poster for starting this topic.

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I went with a .308Win Howa Kuiu in the short 20" barrel. With a light Leupold 2-7 on it I think it should be perfect for taking game with shots under 250 meters. I'm told by those with more experience than I that .308 Win can be downloaded appropriately to take sheep or small black tail and uploaded to take elk. For me that is versatile enough. Anything smaller and I'll use a .22 caliber rifle. For larger game I think I would choose a long action caliber like a .300 Win Mag

The Kuiu and Leupold scope was less than the alpine rifle alone - albeit at a heavier weight. All assembled before adding lightness, my rifle weighs in at 3453 grams (~7lbs 11oz). My goal is to have a 7lb rifle which I think is achievable with a lighter stock. In any case, under 8lbs and the size this thing is doesn't have me wanting for much.

Depends on if you want to shoot predators and save their furs. For deer up to moose you could easily get by with one caliber. While the 6.5CM would do it the 300WM would probably do it even better, and if you’re gonna buy two, those two are excellent choices. Personally I’d lead toward a .280, .280AI, or 30-06, but I killed my last two muledeer and my first elk with a 6.5-257AI(basically a complicated route to approach .26 Nosler ballistics). I would just pick one cartridge. It makes the whole process easier. If you ever decide to shoot predators and want to keep the hides in decent shape, it’s hard to beat a .222 Rem with 50gr BTs. Other bullets tend to exit or blow up on the surface. The extra velocity of a .223 tends to mangle hides even with the 50gr BTs.

BigFin

I’m surprised the .280 and .280AI didn’t make the drawing board. The .308 and 7mm-08 are two excellent cartridges and if I was dead set on a short action, I’d go with the 6.5CM, the 7mm-08 or the .308Win, leaning heavily toward the 7mm-08, but with the long action cartridges also making the list it just seems that stepping up to the .280/280AI would really let the 7mm bore shine. You could still use the lighter bullets if you wanted to avoid recoil, but you could also really step up to some heavy weights if you felt the need and could handle them a little better than the 7mm-08 would. I had planned to build a .280AI in case I ever drew an elk tag, but I drew the elk tag first! I realize you’re working with Nosler there, but Berger has some really great offerings in 7mm. That’s one of the things that draws me to the 7mm.

After shooting my first elk, and seeing how big they are in person, although the 6.5mm did the job, I would prefer something larger. The .270Win is really a cartridge waiting on a bullet. Berger’s new .277” projectiles might spur some other manufactures on to building heavier bullets for the .270Win and I think it would be tough to beat, but current bullet selection and factory ammo outside of Berger would push me away. I don’t think you should worry about your biases on the 7mm-08. They are there for a reason. The 6.5CM might be suitable for large animals but something a little bigger would be better. The 7mm-08 fills the bill. It lets you step up in bullet weight, and beat the .308Win’s ballistics without taking the beating of a magnum, or shelling out the extra money for ammo. Due to old military rifles the 30-06 does not have the factory ammo offerings to show what it will really do. With handloads it will really outperform a .308Win to the point that a .300WM doesn’t shine quite so brightly. The .280 to some extent and the .280AI especially lack that hinderance the 30-06 has. If you like the 7mm-08, the .280 or 280AI should be equally impressive. I shoot at a local benchrest club, although I do not shoot benchrest, and one of the benchrest shooters built a .280AI for elk. He claims that it is Farm more accurate and far less finicky than it should be for a skinny barrel hunting gun build.

Just compared some factory ammo velocities with 140gr bullets. The .280AI would have about 7” less drop at 400yds than the 7mm-08 with 2” less drift or you could add 50yds and have about the same drop. Compared to a .308 the 280AI would send a 168(not offered by Nosler in loaded ammo) 200fps faster than the .308” with 4” less drop at 400yds, or 25 extra yds with the same drop, and about 3” less drift in a 10mph crosswind. The 160’s offered by Nosler would of course be very close. With 7mm bullets available all the way up to 180-190gr the 280AI is a bit more versatile than the 7mm-08 especially if one wants to venture down the road of handloading. A 30-06 could meet or beat those velocities with equal weight bullets, but the ballistics would be inferior. To match those ballistics in a .30cal would require a magnum shooting heavier bullets. That’s easy enough, but most folks would rather avoid the magnum path(well, at least I would) especially in a 7lb or lighter rifle.

I have to post again. I’ve been thinking about it all day. I like the .280 or .280AI and the .280AI does appear to be available in the Kimber. In the Howa the 7mm RemMag is available and from a hunting standpoint is really just as good or better. It’s accurate, it’s powerful, and it’s been used by millions so facotry ammunition is common and plentiful. Personally I like longer barrel life which the .280AI offers in spades, and as a tinkerer I like the idea of being able to rebarrel the gun to almost anything. With a magnum cartridge, if I ever wanted to go away from the 7Mag I would have to go with another magnum or buy a new bolt. With the .280AI, if I ever wanted to rebarrel the gun I could switch to anything with a standard large bolt face. Nonetheless, a 7mm RemMag deserves at least a moment’s consideration by both the OP and BigFin.

Big Fin said:

I'm interested to see the comments you might have for this. Howa and I have been working on a project somewhat similar. We are trying to find a combination of cartridge, weight, length, barrel taper, etc that will be the most versatile option for the western hunter who is only going to buy one rifle, possibly two.

Right now I have these rifles we are working with for the test, along with the ammo choices I am using based on past experience with these cartridges. All have H-S Precision stocks and are topped with Leupold VX-5 or VX-6 scopes.

6.5 CM 22" barrel - 129 grain Nosler AccuBond Long Range

.270 Win 22" barrel - 130 grain Nosler AccuBond

7mm-.08 22" barrel - 140 grain Nosler E-Tip and 140 grain Nosler Accubond

.308 Win 22" barrel - 165 grain Nosler Partition and 168 grain Nosler E-Tip

.308 Win 26" barrel - - 165 grain Nosler Partition and 168 grain Nosler E-Tip

.300 Win Mag 24" barrel - 180 grain Nosler AccuBond

.300 Win Mag 26" barrel - 180 grain Nosler E-Tip


I'm finding the hard part is to find the balance of weight versus cost. Even the lightest of these is more weight than my Alpine Mountain Rifles. But, the cost is significantly lower. Some are willing to pay that higher cost, some are not.

All are cerakoted, which is a pretty low additional cost for the weather-deterring benefits. All have come with factory trigger settings at 2.75#. Not sure if that will be allowed in a retail rifle, due to liability concerns, but the Howa trigger is a really good trigger and even "gooder" when set below 3.0#.

With no compromise for accuracy, the traits we are trying to balance are performance for the widest array of western hunting, cost, weight, ammo availability, durability, and low maintenance. It is turning out to be a harder project than I expected, given how many different situations we hunt in and how many different species we pursue.

Interested to continue following the discussion. Thanks to the original poster for starting this topic.

So far the leader is the 7mm-.08 as the all-around versatile cartridge, but I fear my past biases is influencing that decision. We'll see if that changes when we start in the heavy part of our elk hunting calendar.

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IMO I love the 7mm can shoot bullets from 140grn - 180grn, How about a Howa in 7mm mag or 7WSM or 7saum. You would have a antelope to moose/ bear gun depending on bullet weight and construction. Lots of bullet options

I should have added that I already have a couple of rimfires and shotguns in the safe. Thanks for the info and great replies!
Im trying to save weight since it is a mountain rifle so short action cartridges are the only ones to get serious consideration. I also dont handload and have a Howa .270 as my knockaround rifle when weight isnt a consideration. Being limited to factory ammo seems to take the .280AI off the table. Sadly...
Might end up flipping a coin on the 6.5 ManBun vs the 7mm-HT...
tough choices!

IMO, the choice depends on if one handloads or not.

Factory ammo (pick two of the following): 243, 270, 308, 30-06, 7 Rem mag. A case could be made for the 6.5 Creedmoor, but I'd leave it off the list.

Handloaded Ammo pairings: 243 & 300WSM; 270/338Win Mag; 22-250/6.5PRC

pilsner said:

I should have added that I already have a couple of rimfires and shotguns in the safe. Thanks for the info and great replies!
Im trying to save weight since it is a mountain rifle so short action cartridges are the only ones to get serious consideration. I also dont handload and have a Howa .270 as my knockaround rifle when weight isnt a consideration. Being limited to factory ammo seems to take the .280AI off the table. Sadly...
Might end up flipping a coin on the 6.5 ManBun vs the 7mm-HT...
tough choices!

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There is factory ammo available now for the 280AI as Nosler has brought it to the table as a SAAMI spec cartridge. It won’t work in a short action though. 6.5-284 has been made in short actions, but it is pushing the limits in action length for sure, and personally I’d still aim a little shorter. The case on a 6.5x55 is 2mm shorter, but I doubt that loaded ammo is any shorter. The 6.5x55 was created shooting very long heavy bullets seated deeply and using a long throat. More research would be required, but if you weren’t having a barrel chambered with a more normal throat length and then handloading, it may not be any more suitable for a short action than the 6.5-284. Now you have a lot of combos to consider.

Light-.204, .222, .223, .22-250
Medium- .243, 6mm Rem, .260, 6.5CM
Medium heavy- 7-08, 308,
Heavy- any short mag

I would lean very heavily toward a .222 or .223 and a 7-08 with a tight twist. You can get very heavy bullets in the 7-08. You can get slightly heavier in the .308. They both pack plenty of lunch for large animals. If you felt the need for more, then any of the short mags will do. The medium range that I listed is definitely on the light side for really large animals, although certainly usable, and will come with the advantage of flatter trajectories and slightly less wind drift. For hunting instead of competition, the flatter trajectory can be valuable, but the wind drift is usually less important. So the medium range might seem more suitable for deer than the medium heavy range, but it kinda does away with the varmint end of the spectrum. It’s going to mess up a lot more hides as well loose burn barrels much faster than a .222 or .223. (The .22-250 will butcher lots of hides and burn a barrel pretty quick) On a deer gun it might not matter much as a barrel burning uonrarely destroys usable hunting accuracy at normal ranges, but for varmints your target is much smaller and depending on your style of hunt or what you’re shooting it could be at longer range than most deer hunting.

OP here:
I am only interested in the calibers available in a short action rifle from Kimber Mountain Ascent (the whole point of this is that the wife and I are doing the BHA life memberships after all). Big game only. The goal is that I have a set of two lightweight rifles for NA (dont care about the big bears) that are either good for us both to use (unlikely) or for me to toss in a rifle case together and have a primary and backup rifle set of the same design/configuration/Manual of Arms. As i said earlier I do not handload , already have rimfires and shotguns, and the wife is only 5'0" tall and doesnt like heavy rifles (thankfully she doesnt mind recoil - she draws the line at firing turkey loads and slugs out of my 12 ga but anything less than that is OK with her in short doses).
and with two identical rifles in a heavy/light chamberings would allow us to have the 6.5 or 7mm-08 for range time and i could pull out the short mag when she is also hunting with me or when i pull a elk tag.
Thanks for the great input!
ImBillT - perhaps I need to get my father a "gift" lifetime membership so I can snag him one in .280AI and borrow it back...