Rifle Issues

ida homer · Sep 5, 2018

The wheels have fallen off my confidence and my rifle the last 2 times out. It's a factory setup that's been bedded, I added a timney, a nice butt pad and a nice muzzle brake. I reload a little bit, but I'm definitely not an expert. This rifle/load combo has consistently been a 3/4 MOA setup at short range and a 1 MOA setup out to 500 yards for the past 6 years. I have never tinkered with the recipe since we originally developed this load in 2012.

I shot last week and my drops were not matching up. I was low on the 300 yard gong (8" diameter), just barely grazing the edges a couple times. Next, I hit the 400 yard gong (8") on the top right edge, grazed it. 3 for 3, but it should shoot much better than that.

Went out this morning, double checked my 200 yard zero. I shot two 3 shot groups at 200 yards. 1.75" and 1.9." Both sub MOA and my zero was still on.

I then shot a 5 shot group at 340 yards, with the goal being to do some muzzle velocity validation and input the corrections into my charts. My 5 shot group was 10", spread all over. 3 shots high right and 2 shots low left. A 3 MOA group, WTF!!! Even on my worst day at the range with this load it's never shot worse than 1.5 MOA. So why would it shoot 2 sub MOA groups in a row and then blow up to 3 MOA at a moderate range?

What I've tried so far: Every screw on the rig (action, rings, scope, etc) torqued to spec with a torque wrench. Deep cleaned it, spotless. The barrel has 250 rounds through it throughout its life. A chrono was used for every shot with a spread of 25 fps throughout the summer.

Tomorrow I'm going to try some factory ammo (Superformance) to try and isolate a variable. I've had good luck (1 MOA) with these factories in the past.

Has anyone had their old trusty load blow up like this? Any and all recommendations are welcome. Thanks

Ben Lamb · Sep 5, 2018

How many times have you loaded your brass?

I've had groups go to hell with proven loads due to brass needing attention. Turning the necks brought the grouping back to where it should be.

mrjashu · Sep 5, 2018

Different lots of powder and/or bullets?

ida homer · Sep 5, 2018

This was virgin brass, I loaded 50.

38 Accubonds were from the same lot and 12 were from the prior lot. All primers, powder and brass were from the same lots.

I guess the 12 bullets being from a different lot could be an issue, but would that take a group from sub MOA to 3 MOA?

mrjashu · Sep 5, 2018

twsnow18 said:
I guess the 12 bullets being from a different lot could be an issue, but would that take a group from sub MOA to 3 MOA?

I'd be surprised if it did, different lots of powder would make more of a difference in my experience.

It sounds like you're getting decent results at 200 (your zero distance) but things are really bad at distance. Are you dialing the scope for the drops or holding over? If dialing perhaps it's something mechanical in the scope? If you have another scope I might swap it out and try just to check that off the list.

Hang in there you'll figure it out!

Ben Lamb · Sep 5, 2018

twsnow18 said:
This was virgin brass, I loaded 50.

38 Accubonds were from the same lot and 12 were from the prior lot. All primers, powder and brass were from the same lots.

I guess the 12 bullets being from a different lot could be an issue, but would that take a group from sub MOA to 3 MOA?

Same brass brand as before? I've had big swings switching from one brand to another.

ida homer · Sep 5, 2018

Same brass brand. I've been dialing.

After I try the factory loads I'm going to try a kentucky windage group at 340 yards, just holdover, on a large paper target to see how it groups without dialing. Hopefully that will isolate a possible scope issue.

Ben Lamb · Sep 5, 2018

Huh.

You sure it's not the nut behind the trigger?

How about clean barrel versus fouled?

cahunter805 · Sep 5, 2018

What products are you using to clean?
What brand scope? Model? What bases? Rings?

Bullets from different lots can be shaped different and have different ogive but I doubt that’s the problem.

It’s probably a scope issue. Do you have another scope you can mount?

Deleted member 20812 · Sep 5, 2018

My guess is scope or shooter. I think you are on the right track by checking your groups without dialing. Pay attention to your form. Things really magnify as you get out there.

ida homer · Sep 6, 2018

It's a Vortex HS 4-16x, one of the older 1st gen models. I did have tracking issues with this scope last year. Zero @ 200, I'd dial a shot for 400 and it would not move. I sent it back to Vortex and they fixed it. I checked it over winter and whatever they did worked, as it started to track correctly.

It could be the nut behind the trigger!

Today:

1. My brother is gonna take it out and shoot a group at 200 and a group at 340 yards. To see if it's me. He is a slightly better trigger man than I.
2. If that's not it, I'm going to shoot a couple groups with factory superformance, to check the ammo.
3. If that's not it, I'm gonna attempt kentucky windage without dialing at 350 or so, to see if it's the scope. I may also throw another scope on it this weekend to try that.

4 weeks and 4 days until my first rifle hunt of the year, it seems as if the wheels always fall off for me during crunch time, no matter how early I start. I started shooting in May

Will report back.

ol_spark · Sep 6, 2018

All good suggestions so far. You could also do the box test to see if scope is tracking. From your 200yds zero just dial 16 clicks right shoot a group of 3 shots, then go down 16 clicks shoot another group of 3, then go left 16 clicks and shot 3 more, then dial back up 16 clicks to see if group superimposed on first group fired. The clicks can be modified to fit your target at whatever distance you are shooting at but you get the general idea. Hopefully after your brother shoots it you’ll have more insight to the problem.

ol_spark · Sep 6, 2018

Another thought, you mentioned 12 bullets were from previous lot. Did you keep these separate from the others or are the mixed among the other 38. Yes it would make a difference.

Ben Lamb · Sep 6, 2018

Sounds like a good plan of action.

twsnow18 said:
4 weeks and 4 days until my first rifle hunt of the year, it seems as if the wheels always fall off for me during crunch time, no matter how early I start. I started shooting in May Will report back.

It's always wise to plan for foul-ups rather than get taken by surprise, like I do.

Dan O · Sep 6, 2018

twsnow18 said:
This was virgin brass, I loaded 50.

38 Accubonds were from the same lot and 12 were from the prior lot. All primers, powder and brass were from the same lots.

I guess the 12 bullets being from a different lot could be an issue, but would that take a group from sub MOA to 3 MOA?

I see you say this was virgin brass. In some respects this could be considered fire forming your brass to your chamber. Your case capacity can vary from casing to casing if it has never been fired before. Try loading the fire formed brass and see how consistent they are on the second firing.
I did a test one time with my 270 using Win, Rem & Fed brass. Same load exactly but the chronograph showed a 100 fps difference from the three. They all grouped good but each brand grouped differently from the others. Just a thought.

Dan

ida homer · Sep 7, 2018

Think I got it figured out. Good news and bad news. Good news is that it was not the trigger man, the bad news is that the scope is having issues again. My brother took it out yesterday and had the same results. 3 MOA group at 400 yards.

We decided to just get right to business and try a new scope. Voila, 3.75" group at 400 yards (3 shots circled in red pen). Forgot a damn target so had to measure with a ruler and draw grid lines... newbs.

Again, this is a scope that I've had tracking issues with before and has been sent back to Vortex to be serviced in the past. Something must be jarring inside the mechanicals of the scope from the recoil. My rings are good, as verified yesterday. It's causing the groups to go haywire at medium + range. This is not a hard kicking rifle either, that muzzle brake does wonders and it's about a 9.5 lb. setup, so it's not ultralight.

I will be sending this scope back in to vortex. Luckily I've got an extra scope and my brother has one as well. I'm not going to bash Vortex at all, as I love my Razor HD binos, my cheap diamondback binos (great value for kids or backups) and we've had good luck with friends and family members vortex products as well. I think that I just got a lemon. It is a 1st generation Vortex HS 4-16x, which I think is now discontinued.

Now I've got 5 weeks to get back on track practicing and rebuilding confidence before my ID elk hunt. Thank you guys for the insight and ideas of things to try, as it can always by a myriad of things. Oh the joys of reloading... highs and lows.

Deleted member 16014 · Sep 7, 2018

Good for you sorting it out and troubleshooting. I will not bash Vortex either, but I will say in general a scope warranty means almost nothing to me personally. Internal function is paramount, the rest is just icing.

jeffraines · Sep 7, 2018

SnowyMountaineer said:
Good for you sorting it out and troubleshooting. I will not bash Vortex either, but I will say in general a scope warranty means almost nothing to me personally. Internal function is paramount, the rest is just icing.

Agreed. I think people stroke vortex too much because “they have a super good warranty!!!!” when in reality most brands have a decent warranty nowadays. Honestly, if you look in each price point you can almost always find better optics than vortex offers... and with that said, the warranty is for the optic itself, not the hunt it inevitably ruins.

Deleted member 20812 · Sep 7, 2018

Glad you got it doped out. This is a textbook example for folks to follow when they can't "get a rifle to shoot". You simply HAVE to isolate one variable at a time, or you're just pissing ammo, time, and money down the drain.

What are you going to re scope with?

cahunter805 · Sep 7, 2018

I figured it was the scope. If you are going to be dialing a lot I would go with a different scope personally.

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