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  1. #76

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    That's quite an emblem, Dink. I'm going to publicly denounce that immediately, as you know damn well CPW is going to blame me for it....
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  2. #77

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    Here's another problem:
    The defendants in this case, which was settled out of court with confidentiality, have received over half a million CO sportsman's license dollars from CPW since these assaults took place, for game damage claims of black bears killing their domestic sheep, largely on public land in occupied bighorn sheep habitat. This family also just hosted and donated the alcohol for the CPW Commission community barbeque after the Commission meeting a month ago.
    Whoa. Do sportsman/woman of Colorado know about this? Would it make a difference for CPW to hear what folks think? I mean, that is some dark, creepy stuff right there.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtraverdavis View Post
    Whoa. Do sportsman/woman of Colorado know about this? Would it make a difference for CPW to hear what folks think? I mean, that is some dark, creepy stuff right there.
    I don't think sportsmen know, and I don't think it would make a difference with CPW. There was no conviction, just a settlement. There was another case by several herders regarding wages and labor practices that was also settled out of court.

    I don't really think that sportsmen generally understand the extent of the game damage program. I support game damage payments on private lands where the landowner provides reasonable hunting access (existing program). However, I cannot justify sportsmen paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for domestic livestock killed on public lands grazing allotments. The herders have the authority to kill any predator killing or harassing their wildlife. Why should reimbursement for bear predation on USFS lands be the responsibility of sportsmen?
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  4. #79

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    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Sedalia, Colorado
    Posts
    871

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    Quote Originally Posted by wllm1313 View Post
    If you made any kind of rule saying working dogs had to be in verbal control or on a leash for that matter you would defacto be banning sheep herding. Kinda like banning the use of dogs to hunt mt. lions...
    All the lion dogs I've seen are much better-trained than the sheep dogs I've had encounters with, if the shepherd can't control their dogs, well, they shouldn't have the dogs. A verbal-control law is just fine in my book if it gets the sheep dogs under control along with all the clowns from the city who think it's ok to let their family pet run amok in the woods because "he'd never hurt a fly!" Last summer I saw a dog chasing a cow moose and her calf down a trail at a full run while the dog's owners had no idea it was even going on.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    The defendants in this case, which was settled out of court with confidentiality, have received over half a million CO sportsman's license dollars from CPW since these assaults took place, for game damage claims of black bears killing their domestic sheep, largely on public land in occupied bighorn sheep habitat.

    Looks like I was off a bit. Here are the approved claims over $20,000 approved since 2011. Claims of less than $20,000 are not posted online. These are sportsman's dollars going to a single producer and his sons for bear and mountain lion depredation, much of which occurred on public lands.

    March 2011 - $57,120.30
    March 2012 - $109,420.67
    March 2013 - $74,196.49
    March 2014 - $21,274.76
    March 2015 - $66,694.50
    May 2015 - $68,943.99
    March 2016 - $62,045.51
    May 2016 - $35,641.19
    May 2017 - $30,007.00
    July 2017 - $31,521.55
    July 2018 - $70,859.19
    Total - $627,725.15


    There are some interesting federal LIP and LFP claims as well:

    James Craig Bair

    Bair Bros.
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuketheDog View Post
    All the lion dogs I've seen are much better-trained than the sheep dogs I've had encounters with, if the shepherd can't control their dogs, well, they shouldn't have the dogs. A verbal-control law is just fine in my book if it gets the sheep dogs under control along with all the clowns from the city who think it's ok to let their family pet run amok in the woods because "he'd never hurt a fly!" Last summer I saw a dog chasing a cow moose and her calf down a trail at a full run while the dog's owners had no idea it was even going on.
    Again. This could lead to banning a lot of hunting practices and is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    Watch the video randy published a few weeks about a Tyler Johnerson https://onyourownadventures.com/hunt...t=lion+hunting

    It's not uncommon for lion and/or upland dogs to be beyond verbal control distances fora period of time. Certainly requiring dogs to have GPS collars is a possibility, but sheep dogs don't roam so if the herd knows where there flock is nothing where the dog is really isn't the issue.

    My earlier points were that the dog thing is a red herring, and isn't a battle worth having. Oak's posts clearly show the really issues at hand, and what we as sportsmen and conversationalist should be focused on.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Bozeman, MT
    Posts
    13,258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    Looks like I was off a bit. Here are the approved claims over $20,000 approved since 2011. Claims of less than $20,000 are not posted online. These are sportsman's dollars going to a single producer and his sons for bear and mountain lion depredation, much of which occurred on public lands.

    March 2011 - $57,120.30
    March 2012 - $109,420.67
    March 2013 - $74,196.49
    March 2014 - $21,274.76
    March 2015 - $66,694.50
    May 2015 - $68,943.99
    March 2016 - $62,045.51
    May 2016 - $35,641.19
    May 2017 - $30,007.00
    July 2017 - $31,521.55
    July 2018 - $70,859.19
    Total - $627,725.15


    There are some interesting federal LIP and LFP claims as well:

    James Craig Bair

    Bair Bros.
    I hope people on this site are listening to you, Oak. You do an amazing job advocating for not only wild sheep, but all wildlife and the hunters you are a community leader for. I can't thank you enough for the time and financial sacrifice you/family make for the cause of wild things and wild places. If there is something we can do with our platforms that would be helpful to the cause, please let me know.
    My name is Randy Newberg and I approved this post. What is written is my opinion, and my opinion only.

    "Hunt when you can. You're gonna run outta health before you run outta money."

  9. #84

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    Thanks for the information fellas. I'm not from the area and don't have experience, but it's been interesting to follow the conversation.

    OP - You need to stop comparing BLM to your local park or sidewalk. They're not comparable at all.
    Old Milwaukee Pro Staff

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    #7 - Don't know if the stray yesterday was located. If not, there will be no action taken.
    Update - Five (5) USFS and CPW personnel spent all day Tuesday on an unsuccessful search for the stray in 4-8" of fresh snow. A few notes from the summary I received:

    • The stray domestic sighting was approximately 5.7 air miles away from the location where domestics are taken off the allotment. Domestics were removed from the allotment about 2 Ĺ weeks before the sighting.
    • The stray domestic was about 3.5 air miles outside the permitted allotment. It was within core bighorn summer home range. The reported location is less than a half mile from GPS point locations of a radio collared bighorn ramís summer use area.


    Side note: a really nice ram was killed by an archery hunter a day after the stray sighting, 1.2 air miles away.
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  11. #86

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    Bear spray. Those dogs would of given you a wide berth after getting hit with some of that and you would not have to worry about what could come if you had killed one of them.

    But I believe the best possible solution would of been avoidance. Would wouldn't hunt the same area as a group of noisy, drunk hunters would you? Same principle
    And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul" - John Muir

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Danbury, Wisconsin
    Posts
    425

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    Bird dogs and hounds aren't running around public lands chasing quarry other than what they are trained to target. They also aren't aggressive towards people. Lastly, people are actively out there with a dog, many of which now days are tracked with a gps. These dogs are not left to roam.

    Times change and you need to adapt. My family owns a small business, so we know as well as anyone. Sounds like the sheep herders need to adapt and get with the times. Just because you have always done something doesn't mean it will always continue. I know that if there were aggressive sheep dogs on public lands in Wisconsin they would not last very long

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    Update - Five (5) USFS and CPW personnel spent all day Tuesday on an unsuccessful search for the stray in 4-8" of fresh snow. A few notes from the summary I received:

    • The stray domestic sighting was approximately 5.7 air miles away from the location where domestics are taken off the allotment. Domestics were removed from the allotment about 2 Ĺ weeks before the sighting.
    • The stray domestic was about 3.5 air miles outside the permitted allotment. It was within core bighorn summer home range. The reported location is less than a half mile from GPS point locations of a radio collared bighorn ramís summer use area.


    Side note: a really nice ram was killed by an archery hunter a day after the stray sighting, 1.2 air miles away.
    Update #2 - This domestic sheep got a taxpayer funded helicopter ride out of the backcountry yesterday.
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    Update #2 - This domestic sheep got a taxpayer funded helicopter ride out of the backcountry yesterday.
    A single 22lr round could have accomplished as much at a much reduced cost. Unreal

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTone View Post
    A single 22lr round could have accomplished as much at a much reduced cost. Unreal
    The sheep was deceased.
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  16. #91

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    What a shit show. What is the length of the term on their lease before it is renewed/ up for bid or whatever happens?
    ďTo me, if you donít eat it, then itís not a point of prideĒ. -Matt Rinella

  17. #92

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    Oak, what are the regs as far as getting a lease? Given enough funding could an org like RMBS or BHA lease these areas or are their stipulations beyond the cost, i.e. there is a requirement that you actually graze sheep on them.

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in the basalt rocks
    Posts
    5,279

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    Quote Originally Posted by wllm1313 View Post
    Oak, what are the regs as far as getting a lease? Given enough funding could an org like RMBS or BHA lease these areas or are their stipulations beyond the cost, i.e. there is a requirement that you actually graze sheep on them.
    No, the leases are tied to a base operation of deeded land.
    Fear the beard....

  19. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    What a shit show. What is the length of the term on their lease before it is renewed/ up for bid or whatever happens?
    I believe this particular (10 year) permit expires this December. Given that NEPA was completed the last time it was processed (2009), it is likely to be renewed for 10 more years with the same terms and conditions. This is just a single allotment among hundreds of problematic allotments in CO. The map below depicts active BLM and USFS domestic sheep allotments overlaid on BHS overall range.

    Name:  CO_BHS_overall_active_DS_allotments.jpg
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Size:  55.3 KB

    Quote Originally Posted by wllm1313 View Post
    Oak, what are the regs as far as getting a lease? Given enough funding could an org like RMBS or BHA lease these areas or are their stipulations beyond the cost, i.e. there is a requirement that you actually graze sheep on them.
    As JLS mentioned, there is a base property requirement for holding grazing permits. In general there is a requirement to utilize permits unless the agency has granted voluntary non-use for resource protection. You can find more information than you really want here.
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

    Hell is coming to breakfast.

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Wenatchee
    Posts
    1,336

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    Here's a piece from HCN on the conflict topic. I was surprised to read that sheep dogs are trained to keep them away, though it doesn't work all that well.

    https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...documents-show
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

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