Alaska at a crossroads

A very nice video presentation from CNN on the ANWR and Bristol Bay public lands fight.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/07/us/alaska-crossroads-weir/index.html

Folks, it is getting to be a binary decision on Public Lands. A bright red line has been drawn by Zinke and the DJT administration.

Each and everyone of us Sportsmen and Sportswomen, have to decide.

For me it is easy, I am on the side of Public Lands, including my vote in November. For those on the other side, I respect your decision, but accept that decision and the consequences that it will have on Public Lands.

When you step onto the side of Public Lands, you have committed to what is most important to you and may have to sacrifice some other issues. For those who step to the side of the Extraction Industry and this administrations anti Public Lands policies, you have decided that other things are more important than Public Lands.

In today's world, for some the Truth is optional. That Truth comes from their tribe only. For me as an engineer, I know there is one truth and that is: what is the EFFECT of the decisions and actions taken.

All the bluster on Forums, all the propaganda on the media, all the spin and outright lies from this administration, they really don't amount to much.

But, when the D-9's start ripping ground on the ANWR, when the chainlink fence starts going up around Bristol Bay, when the big rigs start staging on the newly pushed roads, when exploratory oil rigs show up in our National Monuments, when land owners start stretching barbed wire across your favorite trout stream, when they doze coal ash into your favorite Chukar canyon, when the Sage Grouse goes the way of the Passenger Pigeon, when small family ranches are bought up by multinational conglomerates who run the business from an LLC in the Bahamas, when the air in that remote desert basin turns from crystal blue to coal power-plant brown, that is the EFFECT of anti Public Lands actions and policies.

Which side of that bright red line will you be on?

Cheers,

Mark

Ye Shall Be Free To Roam.....

You're an engineer? Let me guess software "engineer?"

D9s in ANWR and chain link around Bristol, an area the size of your state? Seems about right up your clueless alley.

mfb99 said:

Folks, it is getting to be a binary decision on Public Lands.

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I hope the DNC is paying you for this.

It's a slow slide toward the Californication of America.

And while some may look at that as a liberal-ization of society (which is true) I mean it in physical de-wilding of an amazingly wild place and it's slow replacement with cul-de-sacs and mini vans. While Alaska is still be exceptionally wild. It is not as wild as it once was. That progression will not stop unless we choose to stop it; constantly fight for it. To paraphrase the words of a smart dude I heard on a podcast not too long ago, "it certainly won't be easy or convenient". But as a partial owner of ANWR I would prefer to protect every last nugget of wild for my future grandkids/great^5 grandkids.

belly-deep said:

I hope the DNC is paying you for this.

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Doubt it. According to fake news CNN, the DNC is broke.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/politics/dnc-rnc-fundraising-election-day/index.html

ANWR is nearly 20 million acres.

less than a 1/2 ac for every current Californian.

The 1002 area of ANWR, which is 1.5 million acres, was designated for its oil and gas potential. I worked in the Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk oil fields in the 80's & 90's. Close to ANWR. All are on the coastal plane in Alaska, called the north slope. There is this false narrative that industry and nature can not exist together. Wildlife is doing well in the existing fields. It snows every month of the year. lakes go ice free in June. Summer is 6 weeks, with first frost in mid August. The area is rich with wildlife, oil and gas.

This was my recent opinion

"I strongly SUPPORT efforts to develop an oil and gas program in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Having worked many years, across Alaska's north slope, it is my opinion that wildlife and oil & gas development can co-exist. Lease areas become wildlife refuges, no hunting, trapping, or harassing allowed. Caribou are not bothered by roads and lay in the shade of pipelines, and buildings during warm summer days. Polar bear, grizzly bear, musk ox, wolf, arctic fox move freely in existing lease areas, as well as countless ducks, geese, and many other birds.
Oil & gas lease developed areas are wildlife preserves, monitored and extensively studied.

Production facilities and pipeline already exist just miles from ANWR. Alaska consumes all its products and services from the Lower 48. This means jobs in every state in the nation whether its production of boots, safety equipment, machinery, or purchasing medical supplies.

When Alaska works America works."

The proposed Pebble mine is the largest known undeveloped copper ore body in the world. $400 million plus invested research and study.
Bristol Bay, a beautiful area I worked throughout, for six years. The Pebble prospect is about 20 miles north of Iliamna, high in a mountain valley. Lake Iliamna which is near 80 miles long and up to 22 miles wide, max depth of 988 feet, is Alaskas largest lake. It has a population of fresh water seals. Pebble is something like 100 miles from Bristol Bay.
A creek flows from the pebble area into the lake and so the hysteria that industry and fish can not exist together.

That was always my understanding was ANWR was created with a piece set aside specifically for development.

Now I haven't been a member for very long and I refrain from posting on topics I don't have an understanding of. however I have noticed that mfb99 has never engaged in the conversation on a thread he has started. If you feel so strongly why can you not at least engage with other knowledgeable members of the forum for the benefit of all. Why must you pull the pin and walk away every time.

TwistedSage said:

Now I haven't been a member for very long and I refrain from posting on topics I don't have an understanding of. however I have noticed that mfb99 has never engaged in the conversation on a thread he has started. If you feel so strongly why can you not at least engage with other knowledgeable members of the forum for the benefit of all. Why must you pull the pin and walk away every time.

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Because he’s a troll

He does seem to care more about pushing an agenda than being part of a community. He's likely swayed zero people with his efforts, vs the Ben's who've both swayed numerous people, myself included, multiple times.

Pretty much, just seems that is there was any real merit he would be willing to engage in discussion. I'm sure he will never read this or any other responses so it probably doesn't matter. I do enjoy seeing well versed folks actually reasopnd. I suppose these threads are somehwat educational even though the information being retained is opposite of what the OP posts

BearFoot said:

The 1002 area of ANWR, which is 1.5 million acres, was designated for its oil and gas potential. I worked in the Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk oil fields in the 80's & 90's. Close to ANWR. All are on the coastal plane in Alaska, called the north slope. There is this false narrative that industry and nature can not exist together. Wildlife is doing well in the existing fields. It snows every month of the year. lakes go ice free in June. Summer is 6 weeks, with first frost in mid August. The area is rich with wildlife, oil and gas.

This was my recent opinion

"I strongly SUPPORT efforts to develop an oil and gas program in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Having worked many years, across Alaska's north slope, it is my opinion that wildlife and oil & gas development can co-exist. Lease areas become wildlife refuges, no hunting, trapping, or harassing allowed. Caribou are not bothered by roads and lay in the shade of pipelines, and buildings during warm summer days. Polar bear, grizzly bear, musk ox, wolf, arctic fox move freely in existing lease areas, as well as countless ducks, geese, and many other birds.
Oil & gas lease developed areas are wildlife preserves, monitored and extensively studied.

Production facilities and pipeline already exist just miles from ANWR. Alaska consumes all its products and services from the Lower 48. This means jobs in every state in the nation whether its production of boots, safety equipment, machinery, or purchasing medical supplies.

When Alaska works America works."

The proposed Pebble mine is the largest known undeveloped copper ore body in the world. $400 million plus invested research and study.
Bristol Bay, a beautiful area I worked throughout, for six years. The Pebble prospect is about 20 miles north of Iliamna, high in a mountain valley. Lake Iliamna which is near 80 miles long and up to 22 miles wide, max depth of 988 feet, is Alaskas largest lake. It has a population of fresh water seals. Pebble is something like 100 miles from Bristol Bay.
A creek flows from the pebble area into the lake and so the hysteria that industry and fish can not exist together.

View attachment 85366

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Sorry man, but I gotta strongly disagree. I understand you are a local up there, but the last thing I would want to see in a wilderness is caribou hanging out under a pipeline. Some places are just too special and the ANWR is one of those spots that I think if we open up, then everything is fair game. The precedent will be set. Kinda like the issue with mining at the headwaters of the Boundary Waters. Some place are just better off undeveloped to me, and really I could care less if wildlife numbers are not impacted with drilling. I have witnessed development tarnish too many places in my life- some places are best left alone

Northwoods Labs said:

Sorry man, but I gotta strongly disagree. I understand you are a local up there, but the last thing I would want to see in a wilderness is caribou hanging out under a pipeline. Some places are just too special and the ANWR is one of those spots that I think if we open up, then everything is fair game. The precedent will be set. Kinda like the issue with mining at the headwaters of the Boundary Waters. Some place are just better off undeveloped to me, and really I could care less if wildlife numbers are not impacted with drilling. I have witnessed development tarnish too many places in my life- some places are best left alone

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I think we all have places special to us that we'd like to see remain as we know them. But by stating that some places should remain undeveloped you are giving approval for development in other places. The conundrum comes when your "other place" is one I'd like to see untouched...

1_pointer said:

I think we all have places special to us that we'd like to see remain as we know them. But by stating that some places should remain undeveloped you are giving approval for development in other places. The conundrum comes when your "other place" is one I'd like to see untouched...

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I'm talking about areas of wilderness and large chunks of undeveloped land. If you look at the total US land area- the areas I am talking about make up a very small percentage

1_pointer said:

I think we all have places special to us that we'd like to see remain as we know them. But by stating that some places should remain undeveloped you are giving approval for development in other places. The conundrum comes when your "other place" is one I'd like to see untouched...

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Unless of course we ditch the idea that we much have growth (economic growth, housing growth, population growth, etc.) and try instead to maintain. Growth, even very modest growth, is 100% unsustainable, we cannot grow forever.

1_pointer said:

I think we all have places special to us that we'd like to see remain as we know them. But by stating that some places should remain undeveloped you are giving approval for development in other places. The conundrum comes when your "other place" is one I'd like to see untouched...

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+1. You hit the nail on the head. It seems that just about everywhere anymore is a special place to someone, group or species. I worked at a mine in SW wyo in the mid 90's. My thoughts were just like Northwoods Labs that some places are just too special to mine, still do. My thoughts at the time were that if you were going to put a mine anywhere, the Red Desert of SW Wyo would be the perfect place. Not as pretty as other parts of Wyo, not much attention from others, not much wildlife. Well I can guarantee you that if you tried to build that mine today, you would be denied. Whether it was because of sage grouse habitat or that it impedes a major mule deer migration route. Both worthy reasons but it does seem that there is not anywhere anymore that does not have its own worthy reasons.

I think there are two big questions that need answering before we begin new development of public lands 1)the need for new developments and 2)the distinct lack of closure of prior development. How badly is the US in need of the energy from ANWR at this time? Do we need the copper from Pebble? Are the current copper producing mines throughout the world meeting demand? Judging by the steep decline in copper prices this year I would say yes. The necessity question is not a big enough part of the equation. If a new coal mine were proposed today on public lands I would seriously need to ask the question, why? Current US coal production is more than sufficient to meet demands, both current and future.

The second one is final reclamation, closure and return to public of existing development. Particularly in the west, very few developments are completed to final reclamation and released. I sat through a presentation by Dr. Monteith's research staff from the University of Wyoming regarding Western Wyo oil and gas development and its effects on mule deer wintering earlier this year. They reviewed almost 30 years worth of data regarding the movements of mule deer in relation to energy development roads and well pads. I asked the question, "What does the research show about deer movement after the development has reached final reclamation. They were not able to answer that because they could not identify areas that had reached that state. In 30 years the oil and gas industry has not been able to complete final reclamation on anything of substance in Western Wyo? That must mean the wells are still producing. If so then why the sudden need for new energy development on public land in special places like ANWR? Mining is not much better. How many acres of final reclamation have taken place on the Bingham Pit in Utah? Mine development in Wyo has a low track record of completing final reclamation. Like almost none. IMO the biggest reason for this is because of Phased Bond release. Too much emphasis on Phase 1 and not enough on final bond release. My two cents.

Northwoods Labs said:

Sorry man, but I gotta strongly disagree. I understand you are a local up there, but the last thing I would want to see in a wilderness is caribou hanging out under a pipeline.

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Respect your opinion Northwoods. They sometimes will hang under pipelines for the shade it provides. I like caribou where ever I see them, at work, crossing the highway, or in "a wilderness", which is most of Alaska. Moose, bears come right into town, through Walmarts parking lot. I'm fine with that.



Ground Zero

"In fact, there is but one indigenous
people within the entire 19.6 million acres of the ANWR and they are the Iñupiat from
Kaktovik.
On the North Slope, we believe that exploration and production can be conducted
safely. The reality is that the survival of our region and the development of our
communities today depend on continued exploration and production. Without this
economic driver, our communities will need access to greater government subsidies
and programs in order to be sustained."

link: https://www.energy.senate.gov/publi...?File_id=C96EE4FB-D69C-4F20-A264-EA6F0C00680F

That would be the same as me saying that the deer in the my parents subburban cul de sac the same as the ones living 7 miles back in the wilderness. To me those are distinctly different animals. The location and habitat of an animal adds as much to my enjoyment of it as the actual blood and guts. If it were just about the animal then we'd all be fine with zoos and forget about the wild part of wildlife.