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  1. #51
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAoutdoors View Post
    I have seen the same in the Southeast. Nobody I know shoots lead free. A lot of them just shot whatever is the cheapest and available.

    That is a really good point about the amount of possible lead ingested by animals on deer gut piles. It must not affect the coyotes, maybe too big? It would be interesting to see some research.
    Lead ingestion affects raptors much differently than mammalian carnivores.
    Fear the beard....

  2. Default

    I’m not going to quit using lead bullets. Too many of them are too good.

    But I have started using copper bullets more, and when I have kids eating venison, I’ll probably shoot copper exclusively.

    Like Steve Rinella says, we’re not done making mistakes. I’m not convinced they are harmful, as generations of hunters ate lead-killed meat for years with no apparent effect. But it might be one of those things we look back on in 40 years and say “I can’t believe we did that.”

    I don’t know enough about chemistry and medicine to try and argue either side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo and Ned
    Thin out their numbers

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JLS View Post
    Lead ingestion affects raptors much differently than mammalian carnivores.
    To my point, the eastern states kill huge numbers of big game animals with firearms compared to the western states, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more study on the lead effects on raptors in those areas (or maybe there has been a lot of study on it, and it just isn't discussed as much?). Totally anecdotally, in my home state of WI, the firearm deer kill has averaged 300k+ annually for 30 years, and in that time bald eagle numbers have increased to record numbers as well. While that sounds good, I would love to know if (and to what degree) lead may be affecting bald eagles and other raptors in the upper midwest? Those raptors are contending not only with lead fragments from big game gut piles/carcasses, but also lead in the water related to fish/fishing, in the woods with unrecovered small game, and upland birds shot with lead as well.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpshooter View Post
    So, as a California Resident, we switched 10 years ago in the condor range. We were required to do so by our Fish & Game Commission. Now the entire state is about to go lead free. Not sure what to do with the thousands of rounds we have at home.... Additionally, we now can't buy ammunition online which really sucks.

    The funny thing is that in those 10 years, lead levels are still extremely elevated. What wasn't talked about in this discussion is why condors are seeing continued high levels of lead even though the lead has been outlawed for 10 years now (2008) in those areas where we have condors. There are several groups of birds, some in the Big Sur area, some in the Hollister/Pinnacles Nat. Monument, and then the group near 4 corners in the Arizona/Nevada/Utah border. As a biologist, I understand lead poisoning and why we have switched, but there is more going on out there than we understand at this point. I hope that other states take the time to understand what is occurring in the environment. These two areas in Ca are some of the most remote areas of California. Pinnacles Nation Monument and Big Sur are both closed to hunting and while there is hunting on some private lands in and around Pinnacles, it isn't a hot bed. Big Sur is close to Fort Hunter Legget which fires a lot of lead bullets ha ha... but not a too many animals. It is also close to the Los Padres National Forest, which isn't heavily hunted, but it is hunted. A fair number of condors have been observed feeding on marine mammals. Not sure if there is any connection there.

    An interesting question to ponder, each condor costs about $1,000,000 to maintain. In numerous cases, we have to capture and recapture these birds to look at their lead levels in their blood. We aren't seeing decreases and when the entire state goes lead free, what will be the repercussion if lead levels stay high in the birds? What if there aren't decreases in lead levels (even though lead has been banned already within the entire range where they live)?

    There are a lot of things at play here and overall, we will be better by removing lead from gut piles where vultures, eagles and other raptors as well as other mammals have a possibility to ingest lead fragments.
    These are very good questions. But like most political issues, I'm afraid the decisions will be governed by emotion rather than science.

  5. #55
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandejuan View Post
    FWIW. Several years ago, I was at a breakfast function at the Wild Turkey convention in Nashville and sat next to a lady from the USFS. She read my state as being from Arizona and asked if I was familiar with the No. Kaibab. I've Turkey and deer hunted there for 35+ years. Turns out she was the head of the Endangered Species Dept. for the USFS in DC. I mean she was the top dog!!! Anyway, we started talking about the California Condor and non toxic ammo being used for deer and varmint hunting as well as turkey. I told her that I wished the condors well and understood that situation. I did ask her a question for which she had no answer. If lead fragments are toxic for the condors, why is it that the turkey vultures, that are closely related to condors, and the ravens don't seem to have any problems? They are not suffering any die offs or neurotoxicity that is apparent, and their numbers appear to be stable or growing. She replied very honestly that no studies had ever been done on them and the effects of consumed lead. I wish I remembered her name to ask her if the USFWS have since studied this. It's an interesting question. GJ
    There are a couple of different issues here. First, there has been a study on turkey vultures, as well as golden eagles.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0017656

    When the Ridley-Tree Condor Act went into place (the initial lead free zone) both turkey vultures and golden eagles saw improved levels of lead contamination. There have also been studies done at Grand Teton National Park after the elk hunt and that is why it is now lead free too. Specifically, for turkey vultures they are simply far more abundant and don't feed in family groups like the condors.

    When I first met Chris, this was my question to him based on the above study. Why are other species seeing improvement when condors are not especially when CDFW notes very high compliance? He looked at me and said, "you've done you're homework, I love it man, we're gonna be friends"

    He said it was partly the way condors scavenge compared to turkey vultures, sample size (just too few condors), and right about the same time the ban went into place the feeding program for them either stopped or slowed so they (researchers) had less control over their diet and greater potential for contamination if they were to find a contaminated source.
    Four of a kind, 7x57, 284 winchester, 7 Remington Mag, 7 Mashburn.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Regarding raptors, these signs are going up in CA.

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    God's trying to bless America, there's just too many people getting in the way.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpshooter View Post
    So, as a California Resident, we switched 10 years ago in the condor range. We were required to do so by our Fish & Game Commission. Now the entire state is about to go lead free. Not sure what to do with the thousands of rounds we have at home.... Additionally, we now can't buy ammunition online which really sucks.

    The funny thing is that in those 10 years, lead levels are still extremely elevated. What wasn't talked about in this discussion is why condors are seeing continued high levels of lead even though the lead has been outlawed for 10 years now (2008) in those areas where we have condors. There are several groups of birds, some in the Big Sur area, some in the Hollister/Pinnacles Nat. Monument, and then the group near 4 corners in the Arizona/Nevada/Utah border. As a biologist, I understand lead poisoning and why we have switched, but there is more going on out there than we understand at this point. I hope that other states take the time to understand what is occurring in the environment. These two areas in Ca are some of the most remote areas of California. Pinnacles Nation Monument and Big Sur are both closed to hunting and while there is hunting on some private lands in and around Pinnacles, it isn't a hot bed. Big Sur is close to Fort Hunter Legget which fires a lot of lead bullets ha ha... but not a too many animals. It is also close to the Los Padres National Forest, which isn't heavily hunted, but it is hunted. A fair number of condors have been observed feeding on marine mammals. Not sure if there is any connection there.

    An interesting question to ponder, each condor costs about $1,000,000 to maintain. In numerous cases, we have to capture and recapture these birds to look at their lead levels in their blood. We aren't seeing decreases and when the entire state goes lead free, what will be the repercussion if lead levels stay high in the birds? What if there aren't decreases in lead levels (even though lead has been banned already within the entire range where they live)?

    There are a lot of things at play here and overall, we will be better by removing lead from gut piles where vultures, eagles and other raptors as well as other mammals have a possibility to ingest lead fragments.
    It's probably because people are still using lead and a great example of why mandates are BS. Like Chris and Leland said on the podcast, education is the answer. If people decide to switch on their own, it's best for everyone (and for the birds).

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlin59 View Post
    To my point, the eastern states kill huge numbers of big game animals with firearms compared to the western states, so I'm surprised there hasn't been more study on the lead effects on raptors in those areas (or maybe there has been a lot of study on it, and it just isn't discussed as much?). Totally anecdotally, in my home state of WI, the firearm deer kill has averaged 300k+ annually for 30 years, and in that time bald eagle numbers have increased to record numbers as well. While that sounds good, I would love to know if (and to what degree) lead may be affecting bald eagles and other raptors in the upper midwest? Those raptors are contending not only with lead fragments from big game gut piles/carcasses, but also lead in the water related to fish/fishing, in the woods with unrecovered small game, and upland birds shot with lead as well.
    This paper wasn't upper midwest specific but includes many birds recovered in the upper midwest.
    https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70134826

    Work done by UM supports your idea that small game/upland birds also may be a source. They also say gutpiles are likely the primary source.
    https://www.raptor.umn.edu/our-research/lead-poisoning

  9. Default

    Thanks for sharing, good reads.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power54 View Post
    This paper wasn't upper midwest specific but includes many birds recovered in the upper midwest.
    https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70134826

    Work done by UM supports your idea that small game/upland birds also may be a source. They also say gutpiles are likely the primary source.
    https://www.raptor.umn.edu/our-research/lead-poisoning
    Based on conversations with biologists and wardens, one of the contributing factors is prairie dog shooting. Millions of rounds expended each year, where the carcass is left behind entirely for scavengers. That's a lot of lead in the blood streams of raptors.
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    Based on conversations with biologists and wardens, one of the contributing factors is prairie dog shooting. Millions of rounds expended each year, where the carcass is left behind entirely for scavengers. That's a lot of lead in the blood streams of raptors.
    When I was with FWS, I captured a golden eagle near pdog town with lead poisoning. It survived after a trip to the Recovery Center. Who knows how many just die out there.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmiller View Post
    When I was with FWS, I captured a golden eagle near pdog town with lead poisoning. It survived after a trip to the Recovery Center. Who knows how many just die out there.
    Based on how many ranchers I've heard complain about raptor populations, apparently not enough.
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    Based on how many ranchers I've heard complain about raptor populations, apparently not enough.
    Take their guns. Oops I forgot about the felon, rancher loophole.

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
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    Wenatchee
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    https://hunttoeat.com/collections/no...eid=8b642c818c

    New collaboration between Hunt To Eat and the non-lead guys. I'm not a huge fan of the design though...
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmiller View Post
    take their guns. Oops i forgot about the felon, rancher loophole.
    bring back 1080!!!
    get over it commies..
    JWP58

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
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    Twin Cities
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    bring back 1080!!!
    Ya lost me
    "Freedom is NOT Free"

  17. #67

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    Damn you Nixon.

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    bring back 1080!!!
    Aka “the good stuff”
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo and Ned
    Thin out their numbers

  19. Default

    Never even considered this was an issue before this post. Thanks for sharing.
    And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.

  20. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Lamb View Post
    bring back 1080!!!
    Dont need to. Fly bait and xylitol are now being used for the same purpose, albeit illegally.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Central California
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    In my neck of the woods in Comiefornia we were FORCED to use copper bullets years ago for the condors and now because of the raptors the rest of the state will belong for the ride within two years. Personally if I could go back to shooting traditional ammunition I would do it in a New York minute. I feel copper bullets don't expand enough and shoot way different than traditional ammo which requires trying different brands of ammunition to see which shoots the best out your gun..However that's easier said than done as the majority of sporting good stores have a very limited selection of lead free ammunition and to top it off the new gun laws prohibit a person from ordering ammunition online unless its through an FFL further adding insult to injury!!!

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Central California
    Posts
    171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power54 View Post
    It's probably because people are still using lead and a great example of why mandates are BS. Like Chris and Leland said on the podcast, education is the answer. If people decide to switch on their own, it's best for everyone (and for the birds).
    You must be mistaking California for a state with a high hunter success rate where noncompliance can be a factor. Plus every time I run into a Warden while hunting they check all of our ammunition for compliance

  23. #73

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    Thanks for sharing. I had never considered this and will start looking into different rifle ammo this season. Also will try steel shot on doves this season. I prefer close shots with #9 shells but I wonder if steel with #9 will have the knock down or if it will result in winged birds? I dread hunting squirrels with steel shot though. You lose the ability to reach out and touch one, and even have seen too many run off with close range shots. I will consider more into looking at the high dollar non toxic shells though.

    Agree with many that have said they are more concerned with lead affecting wildlife more than myself. One thing I might try this season is to keep a trail camera with me to leave over gut piles. It'll be interesting to see.

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    I switched to all copper last season and the one buck I shot with copper didn't take many more steps.

    There has been some interesting research done over the last few years that suggests that leaded gasoline plays(ed) a strong role in violent behavior in young people reflected in the violent crime rate. As leaded gasoline was phased out, many countries, including the US, experienced a drop in the rate of violent crime ~20 years later as children-->adolescents with low concentrations of blood lead.

    Lead is pretty toxic stuff.

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHOMP View Post
    Thanks for sharing. I had never considered this and will start looking into different rifle ammo this season. Also will try steel shot on doves this season. I prefer close shots with #9 shells but I wonder if steel with #9 will have the knock down or if it will result in winged birds? I dread hunting squirrels with steel shot though. You lose the ability to reach out and touch one, and even have seen too many run off with close range shots. I will consider more into looking at the high dollar non toxic shells though.

    Agree with many that have said they are more concerned with lead affecting wildlife more than myself. One thing I might try this season is to keep a trail camera with me to leave over gut piles. It'll be interesting to see.
    Give Bismuth a try! It's closer to the density of lead than steel. I used it last fall in Iowa on pheasants and was happy with it. It's not lead cheap, but not super non-toxic expensive either.

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/KENT...OX/2263462.uts

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