Sitka Gear Turkey Tool Belt

A rant on weapon-based seasons, with a proposal.

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There was a recent thread where an older gentleman discussed moving to a crossbow due to an injury, but decided not to do it because of the stigma against crossbows.

I was going to reply there, but my thoughts are bigger than just compound vs crossbow, and I'd like to start some discussion on my thoughts on the subject. Please don't jump in until you read the whole post.

These special weapon seasons just create divisiveness among hunters. Trad archers don't like compounds, all archers don't like crossbows, none of them like muzzleloader hunters during "their" seasons. Rifle hunters become jealous of the extended time archers get, etc. The current lines are very arbitrary, often varying greatly between states. We like to pretend all these different seasons are due to tag allocations and harvest percentage, but its really just about selling more stuff.

The ONLY reason some groups (we'll say some archers) don't want another group (say, crossbow users) in the woods is selfish: reduced competition. Saying its about ethics ( Using a less effective weapon is ethical? ) or about harvest percentages ( this is dependent on the hunter's skill as much as the maximum potential effectiveness ) is just political posturing. Weapon technology and therefore effectiveness is constantly improving, so if we're going to discuss maximum effectiveness, it needs to be based on something apart from the weapon, the human.

A Proposal

While a "single season" with any weapon removes the basic divison, I think there is room for a better alternative. I'd like to see Mechanical Stored Energy: where the person has to provide the energy VS Chemical Stored Energy: can't come up with a better name; explosive, electrical, compressed air. These seem fairly future proof to me. As far as I can tell, there's an upper limit to what is going to be achieved with pure muscle power, and thus its the only fair way to separate weapons. Meanwhile, we know things like lasers and railguns are a distinct possibility, and the "airbow" ( There's nothing bow about it, I'd prefer "arrow gun" ) is already creating controversy. These would all be handled with the above distinction.

There's no doubt that the barrier to entry for using a crossbow is lower than that of a vertical bow. But should that be a determining factor? There's no skill test for allowing archers in the woods. I've seen plenty of compound users that I wish were using an easier to use weapon, but are still out there slinging arrows anyway. How many more animals are wounded and die from an unskilled archer, whereas perhaps if they used a crossbow, they'd be one and done. This is all assuming a crossbow is the best tool for the job, and there are circumstances where it can be argued its not. I'd imagine they are great for sitting in a bling. However, they are heavier and more cumbersome, thus not ideal for spot and stalk type hunting. I will go on if requested.

If feel the group that loses the most under this scenario is muzzleloader hunters. Sorry muzzleloader hunters, but let's be honest, its just a handicapped rifle, except in the instances where it essentially is a modern rifle. Its especially ridiculous when the muzzleloader is capable of shooting 700+ yards. The fact is that even a fairly primitive muzzleloader has the capability of launching a projectile far farther than anything human powered, and those that are even older are questionably accurate for creating a clean kill.

It does us no good to bicker so much between ourselves. Love to hear your thoughts on holes in my arguments.

* Disclaimer: I own and hunt with muzzleloaders, rifles, shotguns and compound bows. I do not own nor hunt with a crossbow.
 
Maybe non-mechanical energy is the other name, which describes energy stored in atoms. Where do you see crossbows fitting into this? Technically speaking, I think they fall into the former, as the bolts movement is generated by mechanical energy even though it is not human generated. *disclaimer...not a physicist.
 
Idaho has
Any wepon seasons -rifle, pistol, bow, crossbow, shotgun and any muzzleloader.

Short range wepon seasons- pistol, bow, crossbow, shotgun, muzzleloader

Bow seasons- bow

Muzzleloader seasons- open sight muzzleloader no sabot, loose powder, no 209primer, exposed primer

There are plenty of opportunities to crossbow hunt in Idaho there is no need for able body people to use a crossbow during a bow season.

If they want to add a crossbow season do it.
Just don't tell me it's the same thing as drawing a bow in the middle of a herd of elk.
Here is a thought one of you guys who says it's the same thing try to spot and stalk pronghorn, Deer or elk with your crossbow not cocked. Then @#)(# it within 20 seconds of the shot. No shot? Then un @#)(# it move and try again. Let us know if it's harder.
 
I care less about the inputs than I do the outputs. I don't care how you achieve it, if you can effectively shoot more than 100 yards you're in one season. If you less you can be in another season.
 
I'll also add there is a special permits to use a crossbow in bow season if medically necessary. This I have no problem with.
 
Maybe non-mechanical energy is the other name, which describes energy stored in atoms. Where do you see crossbows fitting into this? Technically speaking, I think they fall into the former, as the bolts movement is generated by mechanical energy even though it is not human generated. *disclaimer...not a physicist.

Generally, A person has to turn the cocking crank or step/pull.

If its got an integrated electric drive, that's pretty obviously non-mechanical.

If there is some system out there that turns the crank for you, in which case it would fall under the non-mechanical energy category.

I agree that situation could be muddied in the very odd situation of having the crank-turning device available in a residence / vehicle and only able to shoot once in the field. I am not aware if this is common.

I care less about the inputs than I do the outputs. I don't care how you achieve it, if you can effectively shoot more than 100 yards you're in one season. If you less you can be in another season.

Are you asking for skill tests? Can I intentionally fail a long range skill test so that I can use a longer range weapon in the field? Do you want to ban Aron Snyder (just as an example) from archery season? I'm not sure how this would be put into practice, whereas I feel my proposal is enforceable. I'm not sure there is any mechanical weapon that makes it easy to shoot that far, which is why I felt it would be a fair, non-subjective benchmark.

Here is a thought one of you guys who says it's the same thing try to spot and stalk pronghorn, Deer or elk with your crossbow not cocked. Then @#)(# it within 20 seconds of the shot. No shot? Then un @#)(# it move and try again. Let us know if it's harder.

I'm not sure who said it was the same thing. I don't even own a crossbow. I hunt with a compound and I understand you can get busted on the draw. I won't disagree that shooting the crossbow removes that difficulty. But why should the deciding factor in what's legal be some arbitrary "bustableness" measure ?

Its easier to use a compound bow than a traditional bow, but people still hunt with traditional bows.

The proposal I laid out is fairly clear and measurable in what would be legal vs not, and is not an arbitrary line based on feelings of skill level required.
 
Well if you want my opinion then I'll give it to you.

All crossbows should be in produced in Lost- pink or Pink Camo.

If you want to hunt with your crossbow during archery season thats fine, as long as it is solid pink or pink camo.

Outside of archery season during rifle season you may use a camo synthetic black looking crossbow.

Maybe you never asked for my opinion. But there you have it.
 
Are you asking for skill tests? Can I intentionally fail a long range skill test so that I can use a longer range weapon in the field? Do you want to ban Aron Snyder (just as an example) from archery season? I'm not sure how this would be put into practice, whereas I feel my proposal is enforceable. I'm not sure there is any mechanical weapon that makes it easy to shoot that far, which is why I felt it would be a fair, non-subjective benchmark.

That's a good point. The "stored energy" gets at the same thing in the end. If you shoot a 90 lb bow with a 32" draw you're on the end of the spectrum but still considerably out of the category of a muzzy or crossbow. Someone feel free to check my math....I'm just taking a guess anyway.
 
Personally I think it should be more about the objectives of the hunt:

Reduced Range seasons (suburban areas, close to houses etc.) the goal is large harvest but safety is a concern: pistol, bows, crossbow, shotgun, muzzle loader??
Primitive bow only (Goal is to put maximum hunters in field, but with handicap so lots of people can participate, in highly coveted areas): Trad bow only
Improved Primitive (Goal is to put maximum hunters in field, but with handicap so lots of people can participate, more of a general season type of unit): Compound bow, Traditional (Hawken) muzzleloader open sights, no sabots, etc, Crossbow
General Rifle (Shorter season, areas where it's tougher to hunt (like Montana back country units): Any weapon

Personally I think the step between Trad bow and Compound is way bigger than compound and crossbow, and a most guys can shoot a compound bow better than a hawken style muzzleloader (as always there are exceptions).

Disclaimer I have hunted with everything but a crossbow but I have yet to get even close to killing something with a muzzleloader
 
Selling more stuff is right. Manufacturers will continue to lobby for changes as they come up with the latest and greatest product for the year that pushes the envelope even further.
 
I guess all of this is fun to talk about. I don't know that there's a problem with how things are now though.

People will complain about the rules no matter what, can't please everyone. I think the states do a pretty good job for the most part.
 
Everyone talks of how to limit the take of others so they can have more opportunity. I'd like to see a large portion of the hunting population focused on voluntarily reducing their impact on big game animals so I can have more opportunity for harvest. :)
 
Our "primitive season" went from cap and ball, to inline primer, to single shot, old fashion caliber, to single shot, .35 caliber or higher. The .35 Whelen isn't very primitive, is it? Most of us in Mississippi have a safe full of muzzleloaders that don't get used. I stopped at the single shot .38-55 WIN. What a wonderful caliber.
 
I used to kind of be an archery purist.

Until I went on an antelope hunt and the land owner said he doesn’t set up blinds anymore because archery hunters were too much work for him. He talked us into using a rifle. I was changed.

After that hunt I realized that I have fun regardless of the weapon I choose to use. To me, that’s what it’s all about.

I could care less what people use wether it’s rifle, bow, x-bow, blowgun, etc. There are good and bad bow hunters, and there are good and bad rifle hunters.
 
There was a recent thread where an older gentleman discussed moving to a crossbow due to an injury, but decided not to do it because of the stigma against crossbows.

I was going to reply there, but my thoughts are bigger than just compound vs crossbow, and I'd like to start some discussion on my thoughts on the subject. Please don't jump in until you read the whole post.

These special weapon seasons just create divisiveness among hunters. Trad archers don't like compounds, all archers don't like crossbows, none of them like muzzleloader hunters during "their" seasons. Rifle hunters become jealous of the extended time archers get, etc. The current lines are very arbitrary, often varying greatly between states. We like to pretend all these different seasons are due to tag allocations and harvest percentage, but its really just about selling more stuff.

The ONLY reason some groups (we'll say some archers) don't want another group (say, crossbow users) in the woods is selfish: reduced competition. Saying its about ethics ( Using a less effective weapon is ethical? ) or about harvest percentages ( this is dependent on the hunter's skill as much as the maximum potential effectiveness ) is just political posturing. Weapon technology and therefore effectiveness is constantly improving, so if we're going to discuss maximum effectiveness, it needs to be based on something apart from the weapon, the human.

A Proposal

While a "single season" with any weapon removes the basic divison, I think there is room for a better alternative. I'd like to see Mechanical Stored Energy: where the person has to provide the energy VS Chemical Stored Energy: can't come up with a better name; explosive, electrical, compressed air. These seem fairly future proof to me. As far as I can tell, there's an upper limit to what is going to be achieved with pure muscle power, and thus its the only fair way to separate weapons. Meanwhile, we know things like lasers and railguns are a distinct possibility, and the "airbow" ( There's nothing bow about it, I'd prefer "arrow gun" ) is already creating controversy. These would all be handled with the above distinction.

There's no doubt that the barrier to entry for using a crossbow is lower than that of a vertical bow. But should that be a determining factor? There's no skill test for allowing archers in the woods. I've seen plenty of compound users that I wish were using an easier to use weapon, but are still out there slinging arrows anyway. How many more animals are wounded and die from an unskilled archer, whereas perhaps if they used a crossbow, they'd be one and done. This is all assuming a crossbow is the best tool for the job, and there are circumstances where it can be argued its not. I'd imagine they are great for sitting in a bling. However, they are heavier and more cumbersome, thus not ideal for spot and stalk type hunting. I will go on if requested.

If feel the group that loses the most under this scenario is muzzleloader hunters. Sorry muzzleloader hunters, but let's be honest, its just a handicapped rifle, except in the instances where it essentially is a modern rifle. Its especially ridiculous when the muzzleloader is capable of shooting 700+ yards. The fact is that even a fairly primitive muzzleloader has the capability of launching a projectile far farther than anything human powered, and those that are even older are questionably accurate for creating a clean kill.

It does us no good to bicker so much between ourselves. Love to hear your thoughts on holes in my arguments.

* Disclaimer: I own and hunt with muzzleloaders, rifles, shotguns and compound bows. I do not own nor hunt with a crossbow.

Cross bows are the bridge to this problem. Turns rifle hunters into archery hunters so they don't have to complain about archers getting first crack at all the big boys.
 
I'll admit that I too look down on the crossbow. They legalized them for general use here in Pennsylvania some years back. It used to be for handicapped only which I have NO problem with. You're right it IS selfish. But that's how people are, I think there is a lot of issues with it that have rubbed people the wrong way.
 
. I won't disagree that shooting the crossbow removes that difficulty. But why should the deciding factor in what's legal be some arbitrary "bustableness" measure ?
I say because we set seasons based on harvest statistics. If we keep moving the needle we will eventually be limiting take during archery season in other ways. (Like shorter seasons or draw only)
Its easier to use a compound bow than a traditional bow, but people still hunt with traditional bows.

The proposal I laid out is fairly clear and measurable in what would be legal vs not, and is not an arbitrary line based on feelings of skill level required.
I personally feel that you are trying to over simplify the seasons.

I'm all for a traditional bow only season, a crossbow season and a wheel bow season.

The main reason we have so many seasons (here) is to spread people out and give hunters a chance to pick there experience.

How many people do you want in the field at the same time as you?
What challenges are you ok with?
What time of year do you prefer?.
How often do you want to hunt?
What do you want to harvest?

We all answer these questions differently so why not have options?

Your argument could also be made for having just one any weapon season where we are all in the field at the same time.

My argument is to offer many different seasons for many different weapons and make people choose one. This is what Idaho tries to do and it works pretty good.

It spreads people out and leaves a level playing field.
 
Are there any western states that allow unrestricted use of a cross bow during an open archery season? I'd be curious to cross reference harvest statistics with other states, or even within units, that do not allow the use of crossbows.
 
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