Make MT Sheep/Goat Once in a Lifetime?

antlerradar · May 31, 2018

I would not be in favor of this. The improvement in the odds would just not be worth it. The unlimited could however be effected even if they were left out. As hunters took there OIL sheep in other units, some of them may start applying for the unlimited units. Over time this could add quite a few additional hunters to the unlimited.

Bambistew · May 31, 2018

Flatland Crusoe said:
I wish all lower 48 sheep tags were consolidated so that a punched sheep tag in any lower 48 state was OIL. As an NR, I think you could start effecting the odds quite a bit more if you starting knocking guys out of applying in every sheep state every year once they are drawn.

I just wasted an hour looking up stats in 8 states... I would estimate there to be somewhere in the order of 150,000 people applying for sheep tags every year, combined across all states (125,000 total res apps and 110,000 NR apps). Yep, some apply for multiple states, but if you look at the Residents only, you can add them up and see how many are "unique" applicants, and there is a lot of guys that live in sheep free states that apply as well.

There are about 1350 (1175 res, 175 nr) sheep tags given each year across the entire L48.

Kicking people out after they draw will do nothing to the odds.

BTW Montana has the worst odds of any state for sheep, and its about 4x worse for NR than any other state.

Points or no points, its pure luck to draw.

1_pointer · May 31, 2018

Flatland Crusoe said:
It would at least kick a few old guys who loaded the game in their favor decades ago out for their 2nd or 3rd round of sheep hunting.

When you have tags whose draw odds are almost all under 1%,often orders of magnitude worse, and the typical hunter might only have 30-40 years of being physically capable of sheep hunting going more than once it isn't mathematically going to change much. Most people are lucky to go sheep hunting even once.

I realize this idea runs counter to the state level management of wildlife, but sheep hunting needs some serious reform.

What would this be a slippery slope towards? Are you worried it somehow would create more auction tags or effect the value of those auctions?

The slippery slope would be that it "runs counter to the state level management". It could be the start of doing it for other species and I'd be just as against it for them as well. Regardless of the change in draw odds, I doubt I could be convinced it would be good for sheep.

Southern Elk · May 31, 2018

The best way to improve the odds is to put more sheep and goats on the mountain. In order to get significantly higher wild sheep populations, something will have to be done to remove domestic sheep from their range.

If you told me right now that I could draw a bighorn tag, with the only catch being that I'd only get to hunt them once, I'd say show me where to sign.

Flatland Crusoe · May 31, 2018

Bambistew said:
I just wasted an hour looking up stats in 8 states... I would estimate there to be somewhere in the order of 150,000 people applying for sheep tags every year, combined across all states (125,000 total res apps and 110,000 NR apps). Yep, some apply for multiple states, but if you look at the Residents only, you can add them up and see how many are "unique" applicants, and there is a lot of guys that live in sheep free states that apply as well.

There are about 1350 (1175 res, 175 nr) sheep tags given each year across the entire L48.

Kicking people out after they draw will do nothing to the odds.

BTW Montana has the worst odds of any state for sheep, and its about 4x worse for NR than any other state.

Points or no points, its pure luck to draw.

If you assume that the applicant pool is constant at 150,000, 1350 tags are being issued a year and an average hunter might apply for 30 years, 40,500 people will have been removed from that pool by the rule and draw odds at the end increase by 27% in the final year against the first year and everyone's odds of drawing a single sheep tag increase 13.5% over the course of the 30 years. Over time the odds do add up by kicking people out of the pool.

You can argue about the math or assumptions, but OIL tags do increase the odds of drawing such a tag over a lifetime.

As a member of the generation drawing against guys who had 10 points when I was born, I'm all for something that does anything to level the playing field.

Nameless Range · May 31, 2018

Southern Elk said:
The best way to improve the odds is to put more sheep and goats on the mountain. In order to get significantly higher wild sheep populations, something will have to be done to remove domestic sheep from their range.

If you told me right now that I could draw a bighorn tag, with the only catch being that I'd only get to hunt them once, I'd say show me where to sign.

I second this.

charliebravo77 · May 31, 2018

Southern Elk said:
The best way to improve the odds is to put more sheep and goats on the mountain. In order to get significantly higher wild sheep populations, something will have to be done to remove domestic sheep from their range.

Since that ultimately takes dollars to pull off, how about an increase in resident tag fees to help fund it? Only looking at deer or elk if MT for example doubled the resident fees from ~$20 for elk and ~$15 for deer to $50 for elk and $35 for deer that'd more than double the revenue from those two tags and still keep them very affordable for residents.

If what I'm looking at is right, there were at least 63,000 resident elk tags of varying types sold in 2017. Those alone could bring revenue from ~$1.2m to over $3m not even counting the deer tags. Here in IL I'd love to see the tag costs increased for deer and turkeys (and the money actually go back to conservation) because IDNR is horrifically underfunded and understaffed but by and large resident hunters don't want to seem to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouths are.

MTGomer · May 31, 2018

Southern Elk said:
The best way to improve the odds is to put more sheep and goats on the mountain.

DING DING DING We have a winner.

Read this, read it again, and repeat until you get it.

There are dozens of mountain ranges suitable for sheep habitat that have none. That needs to change. That means the end of public land grazing of domestic sheep in ALL historical bighorn habitat, and preferably something like a zoning regulation to ban them altogether. The latter is a pipe dream obviously.

Desk Pop · May 31, 2018

Yes. I support OIL for sheep, goat and moose. And yes, it does help odds. Maybe not a bunch, but it helps. If you've killed one, say, " congrats, but you're done." I also think that if it is OIL sheep, goat, moose kill, not draw, then if you kill a sheep, limited or unlimited, you're done. Sounds harsh, but it is logical...a ram is a ram. Also, go to Idaho like system (with points) where you can pick one each year....but let people retain points accrued already until they are used.

MLaird · May 31, 2018

I think I would support making the big three OIL. The way Idaho does it is intriguing.

MTGomer · May 31, 2018

IdahoNick said:
Yes. I support OIL for sheep, goat and moose. And yes, it does help odds. Maybe not a bunch, but it helps. If you've killed one, say, " congrats, but you're done." I also think that if it is OIL sheep, goat, moose kill, not draw, then if you kill a sheep, limited or unlimited, you're done. Sounds harsh, but it is logical...a ram is a ram. Also, go to Idaho like system (with points) where you can pick one each year....but let people retain points accrued already until they are used.

The people that have killed a sheep in the past that are hunting the unlimiteds aren’t taking any opportunity away from anybody else.
500 was open for 62 days last year, didn’t hit quota the year before, and was open for 60-some days in 2015.
501 and 502 never reached quota last year.
The unlimiteds are where non Alaskan Resident/non millionaires that live and die to sheep hunt go. There’s no ‘logical’ reason to take that away from them. Without that core group of people the opportunity for EVERYONE likely would have been lost years ago due to lack of interest -an idea that still gets floated by FWP from time to time, and has to be justified and pushed back on.

Gerald Martin · May 31, 2018

While I do not support making MSG OIL, I would support moving back to having to front the tag fees at application time instead of $10. That and elimination of buying a point after the draw would be the best way to increase the odds of drawing for those who are really passionate about hunting.

As someone mentioned earlier, this is feel good legislation that does nothing to improve odds. If we want to consider what is "fair" and "right" and all that, who gets to decide? I think it is totally selfish and unfair for people to draw a special tag and then not even use it, or go out once or twice and realize the mountains are too steep, the hunt is too hard, or whatever excuse they have for putzing out. They wasted a tag that someone who has a much greater passion for hunting that tag could have used.

Another point to consider is that many people don't become passionate about joining conservation efforts until after they have had a successful hunt. They quickly realize the validity of the rationale that the best way to improve odds is not make it harder to draw a few tags, but to increase the numbers and distribution of the big 3 (especially sheep and goats). Most of them not only want to give back, they also want to experience more hunts like this in the future. Making it "once and done" kills a lot of the interest in increasing numbers as those hunters realize they have no further opportunity and move on to other pursuits.

Last year a guy I know drew his second tag in the same sheep unit I have been applying for 14 years. I was thrilled to hear that this 72 year old mountain man was going to get to go sheep hunting again after years of investing his time and knowledge in helping dozens of other sheep and goat hunters in this unit fulfill their dreams. Who knows, maybe he took my tag. Whatever the case, it was his number that was pulled and I was happy for him. It might be my turn next month and hopefully when I'm 65 or 70 I can do it again before I get too old.

tjones · May 31, 2018

I find it interesting that guys that have been successful on MSG and also the ones that have drawn multiple MSG are in favor of fronting the tag money in order to increase draw odds by essential pricing guys out yet want no part of going OIL which would eliminate them.

Myself I’m in favor of OIL and fronting the money. Also MD and elk LE also on the 7 year wait. None of which will happen.

vanish · Jun 1, 2018

MTTW said:
I think fronting the money makes you prioritize.

The fallacy here is that this is ONLY true if money is hard to come by.

I am not a passionate sheep hunter. Yes, I want to go some day. My wife is terrified of it being a difficult hunt. We've both been putting in for the draw here in CO since we moved here and realized hunting sheep was a thing, fronting the money, because we can afford to, not because we're serious sheep hunters ( same with moose and goat ).

Every "serious" hunter is in favor of fronting money or paying more ( to reduce draw odds ) until the day comes when they can no longer afford to do so.

20 year sheep applier's wife gets cancer so he's short on funds at application season ... sorry bud, you gotta prioritize.

18 year old wants to hunt sheep some day, but can barely afford college tuition. If he has to front the money for a tag, that's a big deal. How about he waits 5 years ... oh wait, that's even further behind in point creep. He should have prioritized.

The Hedgehog · Jun 1, 2018

Prioritization should always trump entitlement to those who don't/won't.

I could care less about once in a lifetime rules, would be happy with it. But realistically it's not going to make squat difference in the MT draws for MSG with our nearly free up front license fees.

MTGomer · Jun 1, 2018

vanish said:
The fallacy here is that this is ONLY true if money is hard to come by.

I am not a passionate sheep hunter. Yes, I want to go some day. My wife is terrified of it being a difficult hunt. We've both been putting in for the draw here in CO since we moved here and realized hunting sheep was a thing, fronting the money, because we can afford to, not because we're serious sheep hunters ( same with moose and goat ).

Every "serious" hunter is in favor of fronting money or paying more ( to reduce draw odds ) until the day comes when they can no longer afford to do so.

20 year sheep applier's wife gets cancer so he's short on funds at application season ... sorry bud, you gotta prioritize.

18 year old wants to hunt sheep some day, but can barely afford college tuition. If he has to front the money for a tag, that's a big deal. How about he waits 5 years ... oh wait, that's even further behind in point creep. He should have prioritized.

This argument gets used over and over as if hunting is free or that the tag is the expensive part.

People that can’t afgord to pay now can’t afford to pay a month or two later and then Pay a lot more to go hunting in the fall. The tag is the cheapest part.
I’ll eat a couple sheep tags worth of mountain house in a season!
It costs almost a tag just to fill the pickup up.

Gr8bawana · Jun 1, 2018

Flatland Crusoe said:
I wish all lower 48 sheep tags were consolidated so that a punched sheep tag in any lower 48 state was OIL. As an NR, I think you could start effecting the odds quite a bit more if you starting knocking guys out of applying in every sheep state every year once they are drawn.

Even as someone who has yet to draw a sheep tag in any state I would not be in favor of this.

brymoore said:
It will slightly improve draw odds.

I think any improvement in the odds would be imperceivably small.

Bambistew · Jun 1, 2018

Well boys... One month from today, I get to print off my free sheep tag.

Maybe this will be the year I shoot my 8th once in a life time ram?

Glad I prioritized and moved to Alaska.

Schaaf · Jun 1, 2018

MTGomer said:
DING DING DING We have a winner.

Read this, read it again, and repeat until you get it.

There are dozens of mountain ranges suitable for sheep habitat that have none. That needs to change. That means the end of public land grazing of domestic sheep in ALL historical bighorn habitat, and preferably something like a zoning regulation to ban them altogether. The latter is a pipe dream obviously.

As well as more Breaks units. There is only one reason there aren’t Sheep in many of the units south of Fort Peck Lake and the Missouri.

brownbear932008 · Jun 1, 2018

Bambistew said:
Well boys... One month from today, I get to print off my free sheep tag.

Maybe this will be the year I shoot my 8th once in a life time ram?

Glad I prioritized and moved to Alaska.

You keep talking like that and people are gonna move up there and they are all gonna go on a draw! Hahaha
Just had a guy relocate into our office from Las Anchorage I just looked at him and said wth.....

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