permission for hunting

Topgun 30-06 said:

That 23-3-302 appears to be quite a stretch, especially your: "once an animal is in your possession" and doesn't appear to cover what we're talking about. I guess that GW confirmation is the same one that said to go pound sand too, LOL! I know SY in the SnS booklet he puts out shows that he charges more for his different antelope hunts depending on how big a buck you want to pay him to hunt. Is that legal just because it's before the hunt and in your version the Statute would make it illegal only after the animal is killed and he looks at it?

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Confirmed with 2 wardens, if you want to question them, I'll give you the numbers. Sure, you can charge different prices for HUNTS, that's way different than assessing a trophy fee once an animal is killed. I would guess SY has a few different prices depending on the quality and management of the various ranches he hunts, and legally sets prices accordingly.

That isn't what is being referred to though...its the landowner selling access, then illegally charging an additional fee based on what he deems a trophy to be. That is full on violation of 23-3-302...illegally selling wildlife.

You want those phone numbers?

wllm1313 said:

Do you know of a case where someone has purchased a voucher, hunted the private land of the landowner who sold it to them and then had trespassing charges pressed or are you referring to landowners who use agents to sell there tags and the agent withholds the landowner info and/or makes the buyer sign a contract that they won't hunt the land.

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Don't know of a case where the voucher purchaser was cited for trespassing. I have heard of landowners selling the license then telling the purchaser they cant hunt their private...have not heard of an agent withholding information about the landowners.

What exactly is the law regarding an agent selling landowner licenses in Colorado?

BuzzH said:

What exactly is the law regarding an agent selling landowner licenses in Colorado?

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From the 2018 regs brochure:

1. The landowner or designated land manager
must transfer the voucher directly to the hunter.
A voucher that has been transferred by any
person who is not the landowner or designated
land manager is void. A voucher that is
brokered for another person is void. A hunting
license obtained for use with a void voucher is
also void. No person shall broker a voucher on
behalf of any landowner or person, or use or
possess any brokered voucher.
2. The transfer of the voucher occurs when the
hunter’s name is written on the voucher, or the
landowner or designated land manager hands
(or mails) the voucher to the hunter.
3. Landowner vouchers may be transferred one
time only.
4. If a hunter cannot use a voucher, the voucher
becomes VOID. The voucher CANNOT be
reprinted or transferred to another hunter, even
if the voucher has not been redeemed for a
license.

elkduds said:

From the 2018 regs brochure:

1. The landowner or designated land manager
must transfer the voucher directly to the hunter.
A voucher that has been transferred by any
person who is not the landowner or designated
land manager is void. A voucher that is
brokered for another person is void. A hunting
license obtained for use with a void voucher is
also void. No person shall broker a voucher on
behalf of any landowner or person, or use or
possess any brokered voucher.
2. The transfer of the voucher occurs when the
hunter’s name is written on the voucher, or the
landowner or designated land manager hands
(or mails) the voucher to the hunter.
3. Landowner vouchers may be transferred one
time only.
4. If a hunter cannot use a voucher, the voucher
becomes VOID. The voucher CANNOT be
reprinted or transferred to another hunter, even
if the voucher has not been redeemed for a
license.

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That's what I thought I recalled...how many times a year is this violated?

It's going to be a looong 100 days till Sept!

BuzzH said:

Confirmed with 2 wardens, if you want to question them, I'll give you the numbers. Sure, you can charge different prices for HUNTS, that's way different than assessing a trophy fee once an animal is killed. I would guess SY has a few different prices depending on the quality and management of the various ranches he hunts, and legally sets prices accordingly.

That isn't what is being referred to though...its the landowner selling access, then illegally charging an additional fee based on what he deems a trophy to be. That is full on violation of 23-3-302...illegally selling wildlife.

You want those phone numbers?

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Just give me their names and I'll look up their numbers myself, thank you!

BuzzH said:

That's what I thought I recalled...how many times a year is this violated?

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Quien sabe? I've never bought a voucher. Often, I suspect.

And Sept. is a long ways off. Hell, we still get to wait almost 2 weeks for the 1st draw in CO.

I’ve had this discussion with a warden before and Buzz is right. At least in the eyes of that warden. It would be an easy way to guarantee you’d never hunt that place again.

genesis273 said:

It's going to be a looong 100 days till Sept!

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Well we can always go back to discussing the best elk bullet or the best hunting socks.

elkduds said:

If you gain access to CO private property through a CPW-issued landowner tag, that landowner cannot restrict you from taking an animal the tag is valid for.

6. The transfer of a voucher by a landowner
or designated land manager must include
permission to access and hunt all of the
registered land for which the voucher was
awarded, and for the entire season for which the
voucher was awarded, without discrimination
among hunters entering the land. Restrictions
are not allowed, except for manner of access (i.e.
foot, horseback, vehicle) reasonably necessary to
prevent damage to land.

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I am sure there are all types of specific government sponsored/regulated scenarios where the land owner pre-agrees to comply with the state framework rather than their typical property rights. If you are hunting one of those, obviously good to know the specific rules that are "trumping" the default.

tjones said:

Well we can always go back to discussing the best elk bullet or the best hunting socks.

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Good point!

BuzzH said:

Even then, I don't believe there is a violation of a Game and Fish regulation or statute, and would have to be written by a Sheriff as trespass.

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I agree the base violation would be trespass and that was my intended point. I suppose a state F&G could also have further rules punishing hunting on trespassed land, but I am not aware of that and was not suggesting that.

BuzzH said:

As to the trophy fee scenario, you are definitely wrong.

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I was referring only to access fee and conditional land access, I misread your comment and didn't catch the trophy fee angle. I defer to you and WY warden on trophy fee regulations.

BuzzH said:

The stickier one would be killing an animal on Federal or State land that you gained access to via the trespass permission. I agree with you that it would have to spelled out in the written permission...and again, it would be a trespass violation and not a hunting violation. . . . I believe there would have to be something in writing on the conditions of the contract to access the property detailing the specifics.

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Unless WY has an unusual statute of frauds, or specific F&G-related writing requirement, oral access conditions are technically just as valid as written ones. But then of course you have the he said she said game. Writing is always best for both parties.

BuzzH said:

That's what I thought I recalled...how many times a year is this violated?

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I'm sure these rules are violated a bunch of different ways, the way I'm most familiar with is with Open Vouchers, i.e. a landowner voucher that is good for the whole unit, which typically you can only get if you own tons of land. In these cases a large ranch might designate a 'land manager' who effectively brokers the vouchers, this land manager also registers to be a license vendor. When they find a buyer make the buyer give them not only payment but all their information, birth date, CID number, etc. they sign the voucher and then use their license terminal to purchase the actual license and tag for the buyer and print it out. The buyer receives a tag in the mail for a designated unit and never receives information on landowner because they weren't actually given the voucher. This situation is tough because there is no law saying a designated manager can't be the license vendor or that the voucher buyer must actually take physical possession of the voucher before it can be redeemed, and because they didn't specifically tell the buyer not to hunt the property no laws have been violated. Although this kinda of transaction definitely goes against the intent of the program.

The voucher system is totally screwed up. Personally I think they should only be good on the private property that the landowner used to procure them. I don't think the system should be completely abandoned as there are areas that are mostly private and that the system is attempting to get more hunters in the field to manage herds. - Disclaimer I am lucky to have in-laws who get a private land voucher that I get to use occasionally.

Simple, if you have a friend over to your house and they ask for a beer and you say yeah but they proceed to pour their self a double of your Johnnie Walker Blue Label. I bet for damn sure you'll be pissed and next time they want a beer you'll say no.

Take the beer, leave the johnnie. All about courtesy cuz next time you may offer them the Johnnie.

My two cents.

I don't believe the land owner has anything legal he can do. But, if I was the landowner you can bet that would be the last hunt he ever had on my land along with any of his friends who had permission also.

It's a respect thing, he gives you permission respect him and his property, that includes his wishes.