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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trial153 View Post
    That is even worth the read. And the bull shit typical Dukes daddy Post isn’t worth a response.
    Maybe Yvon could invite the Dr. to future BHA talk to explain the enlightened views they share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanish View Post
    I have no problem agreeing with Yvon Chouinard on some things and disagreeing with him on others.
    What vanish said.

  3. #28

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    counterpunch is a worthless rag! they don't even have enough subscribers to support their business and instead have to resort to donations from those that hold their same political beliefs. you could say they are left wing, but they aren't even that. they are more in line with jill stein and the green party. I doubt you could find a single hunting related opinion that you believe in that counterpunch would support. I went to high school with the managing editor...his opinions on things are so far out there that it's not even worth arguing about.

  4. #29

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    Take the first half of the article (before he turns to bears), and his criticisms of the hunting community have some merit. This is the sort of image of hunting that Randy and his guests have been talking about for years. It's the image our media has projected - all about the kill and no respect for the animal. And the fact that our game and fish boards are comprised almost entirely of white men chosen from within the hunting community is undeniable. Are there justifications for the way we as a community conduct ourselves? Maybe, but then again not always. Socrates had something to say about not examining the life you lead.

    I'm not saying I agree with the guy, but if we can't defend the allegations leveled against us, and address our deficiencies, our days of essentially self-regulation might be numbered.
    We have not reached ethical perfection in hunting. One never achieves perfection in anything, and perhaps it exists precisely so that one can never achieve it. Its purpose is to orient our conduct and to allow us to measure the progress accomplished. In this sense, the advancement achieved in the ethics of hunting is undeniable.
    - Jose Ortega y Gasset, 1942

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassBilly View Post
    Take the first half of the article (before he turns to bears), and his criticisms of the hunting community have some merit. This is the sort of image of hunting that Randy and his guests have been talking about for years. It's the image our media has projected - all about the kill and no respect for the animal. And the fact that our game and fish boards are comprised almost entirely of white men chosen from within the hunting community is undeniable. Are there justifications for the way we as a community conduct ourselves? Maybe, but then again not always. Socrates had something to say about not examining the life you lead.

    I'm not saying I agree with the guy, but if we can't defend the allegations leveled against us, and address our deficiencies, our days of essentially self-regulation might be numbered.
    I generally agree with your thoughtful remarks, but I doubt the audience for this type of hyperbole is seeking a more respectful, introspective and diverse hunting crowd - to them these animals are sentient beings worthy of the same rights and protections as people -- so no killing is OK, regardless of the manner of the hunter. I am not saying outdoorsman still shouldn't seek to become more respectful, introspective and diverse -- I am just saying we should do it because it is the right thing to do and not be under any illusion that it will mollify the antis. The antis will not be satisfied until every hunt is illegal and every gun & bow are melted down.
    "Freedom is NOT Free"

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Kalispell, MT
    Posts
    870

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    I think both Vikingsguy and Bluegrass Billy make valid points here. It's a waste of time to argue with people who have already made up their minds and are dead set against you. At the same time, the die-hard antis make up a small slice of the spectrum of people out there. The real point is to address the open-minded people who haven't set a firm opinion. Mattson raises some valid points, but then goes overboard with broadside smears and name-calling, along with selective amnesia about history. There's room for improvement without blowing up the North American model. Mattson throws the buck out with the gutpile, so to speak.
    "The danger of civilization, of course, is that one might piss one's life away on nonsense," Jim Harrison.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Posts
    9,947

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Long View Post
    I think both Vikingsguy and Bluegrass Billy make valid points here. It's a waste of time to argue with people who have already made up their minds and are dead set against you. At the same time, the die-hard antis make up a small slice of the spectrum of people out there. The real point is to address the open-minded people who haven't set a firm opinion. Mattson raises some valid points, but then goes overboard with broadside smears and name-calling, along with selective amnesia about history. There's room for improvement without blowing up the North American model. Mattson throws the buck out with the gutpile, so to speak.
    Ben, I agree with you here, that both Vikingsguy and Bluegrass Billy have valid points and concerns.

    Where I disagree is that Mattson raises any kind of valid point at all, and even if there may be a valid point mixed in somewhere within that crap he wrote, he squanders those points.

    I also have to wonder where Mattson was while the recovery of grizzly bears was taking place and why he chooses NOW to take his pot shots at the North American Model?

    I know the answer, he's all sored up that the North American Model as well as the ESA has been shown to be successful in recovering species like grizzly bears and wolves. Sportsmen have for a long, long time used the same model to recover elk, deer, pronghorn, wild sheep, bison, waterfowl and the list goes on and on. Also, the NAM and hunter dollars have done an incredible job of funding all wildlife, both game and non-game species.

    Mattson can cry all he wants, but I think its fair to keep in mind that in Wyoming hunters and anglers have funded grizzly bear management to the tune of $50,000,000, yes 50 MILLION, over the last 20 years. This is money that was directly earmarked for grizzly recovery via the NAM that he claims is such a "failure".

    I would like to know how much money Mattson, and those with his mindset have contributed to grizzly bear recovery. I seriously doubt anything close to 50 million.

    Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees with hunting grizzly bears is not the point, the point is that the NAM works and provides funding for all wildlife found within the borders of our 50 states. The ESA has been proven to work via a number of recovered species.

    What Mattson doesn't have behind him is the actual facts, science and the successful history of the NAM of wildlife conservation.

    I also believe that hunters and anglers should do a better job of trumpeting successes like the recovery of wolves and grizzly bears to the point that states regain management control. We should do a better job of reminding everyone just how much money and time we spend enhancing habitat, recovering species, maintaining wildlife populations, protecting public lands, access to public lands, all that stuff.

    Hunters and Anglers do all that and more...and IMO, much too quietly.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Casper, Wyoming
    Posts
    267

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    This article make me want to go bear hunting with Greenhorn.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    And most people who hate clean air, water, and defacto our wildlife are Conservatives
    Hate, you say?

    That's unreasonable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes_daddy View Post
    Anyone from BHA want to explain? https://www.keepgrizzliesprotected.com/the-scientsts

    The Dr and Yvon on same page. Can't make this stuff up.
    Attachment 82539

    BHA Podcast https://www.backcountryhunters.org/b...ast_episode_21
    We live in this amazing world that allows for multiple opinions, nuisance and something beyond binary "if not this, than that" so while I can say I disagree with Chouinard on some issues, I can shake his hand for having a conversation.

    We would all do better to remember a time when respectful discussion and disagreements went beyond 140 word twitter rants and FB memes.

    To the OP, the article clearly shows a scientist who does not now, or maybe ever really believed in the Scientific Method, the North American Model or is able to have a nuanced (there's that word again) view of history.

    To Dukes, not having a nuanced view is what got us into this mess, the wholesale eradication of apex predators and game species in the 1800s, resulted in this pendulum swing.
    Last edited by dannyb278; 05-14-2018 at 04:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mplane72 View Post
    After reading that I would take his Scientific "credentials" to wipe my backside. He is obviously peeved about the possible griz hunt.

    Also, while I am a white male that hunts I am neither uneducated nor did I vote for Trump.
    same

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
    I have been warning of this perspective for many years. The anti-hunting community needs a way to defeat "Science" that they disagree with in order to achieve their goals.

    Anyone heard of the Compassionate Wildlife management model?

    The desire is for this ideology to replace the NAMWM.

    Don't take these rantings lightly. That would be a Big mistake.
    https://medium.com/@gbryja/navigatin...f-800e61b691c2

    "Aldo Leopold, in 1933, first described wildlife management as “the art of making land produce sustained annual crops of wild game for recreational use.” [1] But after shooting a wolf and watching “a fierce green fire dying in her eyes” [2], he realized how wrong he was about this utilitarian approach to wildlife management. Leopold’s views changed dramatically over his lifetime, but we still largely follow the approach to conservation he first put forth. "
    the developers of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation continue to portray recreational hunters as saviours of wildlife and principal actors behind our wildlife conservation efforts."

    "Firstly, by focusing on hunters as the main actors in enacting conservation policies, the model fails to acknowledge a more recent reshaping of the conservation movement. Some researchers, including Canadian environmental scientist Paul Paquet, argue that since the 1960s the whole environmental movement — and with it, wildlife conservation — has been largely shaped by non-hunters and nature enthusiasts — groups that the North American Model disregards. Furthermore, the original model fails on ethical grounds. For example, the interests of hunters who are focused on the management of ungulates for hunting purposes are often in conflict with conservation principles that recognize the ecological role of predators. "

    The movement is growing, and lest 'we' become more vocal/proactive as Buzz suggests, we just may find ourselves and our hunting heritage unrecognizable in the near future.

  13. #38

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    I was curious and clicked on the link, which takes me to a page where I can sign a petition to the President... Obama?
    Name:  Screen Shot 2018-05-20 at 10.19.53 AM.jpg
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  14. #39

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    lol...the link works for me just fine. Here's the title of the article, just google it. :0)

    Navigating the Anthropocene: embracing compassion and empathy for the grizzly bears in the age of uncertainty and unpredictability

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