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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    Considering that every automobile engine’s exhaust from the past several decades is made cleaner with a catylitic converter, I think the impact has been overwhelmingly positive to a level that can never be offset. I bet ole bawaner can remember in person what you and I have only seen pictures of.. pre Clean Air Act smog. Imagine what the air would be like with today’s automobile numbers on the road.
    You may just get what you wish for.

    http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ7...cmZw98wFipTTk-

    http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ7...8yMsiL1Jse2RA-
    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

    Cree Prophecy

  2. #27

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    I just wish for you to answer the question. What environmental regulation that is being cut would effect the proposed mine the OP referenced? But you won’t because you can’t. Beciase the answer does not exist. And if it did, you likely wouldn’t know where to look.
    Ignorance has never phased you before, I don’t expect it to now.

    In the Information Age, it has never been easier to be informed. It is so easy that ignorance is nothing short of willful. A truly pathetic way to be in my opinion, but it is the way of many.
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  3. #28
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    How did this conversation get twisted into support for catalytic converters from a sulfide mine next to the boundary waters?
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    I just wish for you to answer the question. What environmental regulation that is being cut would effect the proposed mine the OP referenced? But you won’t because you can’t. Beciase the answer does not exist. And if it did, you likely wouldn’t know where to look.
    Ignorance has never phased you before, I don’t expect it to now.

    In the Information Age, it has never been easier to be informed. It is so easy that ignorance is nothing short of willful. A truly pathetic way to be in my opinion, but it is the way of many.
    These are just some of the regulations that have already been removed that will impact our public lands at some point.
    *Freeze on new coal mining leases on public lands
    *Methane reporting requirement
    *Anti-dumping rules for coal minnes
    *offshore drilling in the Atlantic and the Arctic
    *inclusion of greenhouse gas emissions in environmental reviews
    *mine clean-up rule
    *sewage treatment pollution regulations
    *fracking regulations on public lands
    *rule regulating industrial polluters
    *safety standards for "high hazard trains

    As much as you refuse to acknowledge these are disasters waiting to happen.

    There are many more that are already in the process of being rolled back but arguing with a snot nosed infant such as yourself is pointless because you will never see past your own little world.
    Carry on

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    Last edited by Gr8bawana; 05-11-2018 at 02:34 PM.
    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

    Cree Prophecy

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    How did this conversation get twisted into support for catalytic converters from a sulfide mine next to the boundary waters?
    Pretty simple when one thinks about it.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8bawana View Post
    These are just some of the regulations that have already been removed that will impact our public lands at some point.
    *Freeze on new coal mining leases on public lands
    *Methane reporting requirement
    *Anti-dumping rules for coal minnes
    *offshore drilling in the Atlantic and the Arctic
    *inclusion of greenhouse gas emissions in environmental reviews
    *mine clean-up rule
    *sewage treatment pollution regulations
    *fracking regulations on public lands
    *rule regulating industrial polluters
    *safety standards for "high hazard trains

    As much as you refuse to acknowledge these are disasters waiting to happen.

    There are many more that are already in the process of being rolled back but arguing with a snot nosed infant such as yourself is pointless because you will never see past your own little world.
    Carry on

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    About some specific documents or regulation numbers?

  7. #32

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    Why am I not surprised that you continue to deflect then turn to personal insults?

    You shouldnt say things to people that you wouldn’t dare say in person. Learn some manners, for goodness sakes. I bet you’re cute when you get this worked up.
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  8. Default

    If nothing this thread is a great example of why politics in this country is grid locked. On one side you have the rape and pillage people and on the other you have people that wont except any mining, logging, etc.
    Last edited by BWALKER77; 05-16-2018 at 01:31 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWALKER77 View Post
    If nothing thisnthread is a great example of why politics in thos country are grid locked. On one side you have the rape and pillage people and on the other you have people that wont except any mining, logging, etc.
    Rape and pillage? You mean the perception of rape and pillage by those that don't want any sort of development, all while they consume literally TONS of natural resources every year and contribute to the rape and pillage they despise? Do you know any of these advocates for the environment that have stopped using natural resources in their daily lives? If anything they consume as much or more than the average person, it takes resources to be vigilant. Stickers, water bottles, NGO groups, flights to gatherings to chant and carry signs, lawsuits, etc.

    My favorite saying is "wrong mine, wrong place." Where are all these mythical right mines, and right places for them? When they circle them on a map, please have them relocate the deposits to those locations, it will be much easier for everyone. There is soon to be 8 Billion people on the planet, many of them crawling out of 3rd world living conditions and they will ALL want the same conveniences we take for granted today. Are they willing to give yours up to give to someone else?

    Society can not function without the use of natural resources, period. The best we can do is develop them in a way that impacts the environment the least. There is no way possible to make the end result of development = pre-development conditions, although most all mining projects in the US discharge water at equal or better water than pre-development, or at a minimum meeting the federal guidelines to do so. Yep, we were hosed decades ago by mining companies that walked away, but the State and Feds were just as much to blame for not having proper regulations in place to prevent it. Who elected those people? Wish we could do the same with urban sprawl (i.e. you and me), and the hundreds of thousands of miles of streams we have impacted by human borne pollutants. At best we capture/filter 40-50% of the pollution we each individually responsible for...

    Next time you go fishing, take a look at all the products you use that are a direct result of mining. From the hooks, to sinkers, to reels, to line guys, your boat, your truck, etc.. Those weights (or bullets if you're a hunter) for example, whether they are lead or some other "non-toxic" type, generated at least 20x as much waste per unit weight. The non-toxic version generated about 2-5+ times more waste than the lead. But wait, you say... "we recycle lead"... How many bullets and fishing weights have you ever recycled? Hunters and fishermen contribute more lead waste into the environment than they realize and are end users of tons and tons of "toxic" metals.

    Buy hey, its the mines...
    "No Kuiu here"

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWALKER77 View Post
    If nothing thisnthread is a great example of why politics in thos country are grid locked. On one side you have the rape and pillage people and on the other you have people that wont except any mining, logging, etc.
    Worth a quick read regarding disappointing state of affairs.
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...terview-218364
    "Freedom is NOT Free"

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambistew View Post
    Rape and pillage? You mean the perception of rape and pillage by those that don't want any sort of development, all while they consume literally TONS of natural resources every year and contribute to the rape and pillage they despise? Do you know any of these advocates for the environment that have stopped using natural resources in their daily lives? If anything they consume as much or more than the average person, it takes resources to be vigilant. Stickers, water bottles, NGO groups, flights to gatherings to chant and carry signs, lawsuits, etc.

    My favorite saying is "wrong mine, wrong place." Where are all these mythical right mines, and right places for them? When they circle them on a map, please have them relocate the deposits to those locations, it will be much easier for everyone. There is soon to be 8 Billion people on the planet, many of them crawling out of 3rd world living conditions and they will ALL want the same conveniences we take for granted today. Are they willing to give yours up to give to someone else?

    Society can not function without the use of natural resources, period. The best we can do is develop them in a way that impacts the environment the least. There is no way possible to make the end result of development = pre-development conditions, although most all mining projects in the US discharge water at equal or better water than pre-development, or at a minimum meeting the federal guidelines to do so. Yep, we were hosed decades ago by mining companies that walked away, but the State and Feds were just as much to blame for not having proper regulations in place to prevent it. Who elected those people? Wish we could do the same with urban sprawl (i.e. you and me), and the hundreds of thousands of miles of streams we have impacted by human borne pollutants. At best we capture/filter 40-50% of the pollution we each individually responsible for...

    Next time you go fishing, take a look at all the products you use that are a direct result of mining. From the hooks, to sinkers, to reels, to line guys, your boat, your truck, etc.. Those weights (or bullets if you're a hunter) for example, whether they are lead or some other "non-toxic" type, generated at least 20x as much waste per unit weight. The non-toxic version generated about 2-5+ times more waste than the lead. But wait, you say... "we recycle lead"... How many bullets and fishing weights have you ever recycled? Hunters and fishermen contribute more lead waste into the environment than they realize and are end users of tons and tons of "toxic" metals.

    Buy hey, its the mines...
    I am in complete agreement!

  12. #37

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    Well wrote

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambistew View Post
    "we recycle lead"... How many bullets and fishing weights have you ever recycled?
    Actually a bunch...I pick up sinkers, jig heads, etc. and keep all my old lead fishing tackle and remold them.

    I've also "mined" some popular shooting areas that were frequented by guys shooting all lead/tin solids through their pistols. Used that to mold jig heads and slip sinkers as well.

    I know several of the gun ranges I've belonged to over the years periodically recover the lead and copper bullets.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Actually a bunch...I pick up sinkers, jig heads, etc. and keep all my old lead fishing tackle and remold them.

    I've also "mined" some popular shooting areas that were frequented by guys shooting all lead/tin solids through their pistols. Used that to mold jig heads and slip sinkers as well.

    I know several of the gun ranges I've belonged to over the years periodically recover the lead and copper bullets.
    "Recycle Mining" I can almost picture a 100 or so years from now, geologists will be sampling the heavily used skeet and trap range locations for lead deposits. There should be a fairly significant concentrated lead deposit at these locations.

    The bottom line is, if there is enough demand for a material someone is going to find a way to get it.
    Last edited by huronmtns; 05-16-2018 at 05:50 PM.

  15. #40

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    Okay so I think we can all agree on 2 things. 1. Human population isn't going to shrink anytime soon (pending some horrific event) 2. Humans consume natural resources.
    As hunters, we should know our past, that natural resources are finite and need to be managed.
    Here are to of many scenarios agreeing upon those to facts stated above:

    1 We stay on the path we are what are we even doing here trying to protect the land and water? Its just all going to be mined and over populated anyways. Sooner or later all the things in the ground are going to run out. Then what?

    2. How about lets take the time now while we still have the resources, to focus our attention on trying to come up alternative solutions, different type of materials, things of that nature. What those are I don't know. I'm not smart enough. I saw a commercial the other day where it was either Exon or BP is making oil from algae. So I saw lets be forward thinking try and get ahead of this stuff before we have to mine everything little thing out of this earth. One way to do that is to make resource extraction less appealing. Yes that may mean it costs more for people like me and you buy those new things but we are by far the wealthiest nation in the world.

    That's why I'm standing behind "wrong mine, wrong place" Lets protect some of these areas until we absolutely have to mine them until we have exhausted all other avenues. We are the greatest nation in the world. Lets demand better. Lets challenge the status quo. One doesn't achieve greatness by sitting back and just going "well it worked before lets just keep doing it". Greatness comes from doing things that has never been done before.

    I drive a truck, shoot guns, burn gas, use plastic, use copper, iron, hell I use the precious metals that go into the components that are inside the computer i'm typing this from. With that said I want better, I want different choices.

  16. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by huronmtns View Post
    "Recycle Mining" I can almost picture a 100 or so years from now, geologists will be sampling the heavily used skeet and trap range locations for lead deposits. There should be a fairly significant concentrated lead deposit at these locations.

    The bottom line is, if there is enough demand for a material someone is going to find a way to get it.
    Recycle mining is a thing too! When I was in college I interned at a major gold producer in Northern Nevada. Gold was around $1720/oz and I was a part of a project trying to increase recovery from ultra fine solids that were remaining suspending in the tailings stream, instead of being captured.

    The next component to the project was going back and dredging the slimes from the tailings impoundment to recover these metals that had been missed, amounting to approximately $10 million annually at those prices for decades.

    Also, Stillwater has a recycle plant in Columbus for things like catylitic converters. You can get damn near $400 off the stock exhaust of a diesel pickup.
    You could say that the tweakers that sawzalled my roommate’s and many other’s cats out from underneath their vehicles when we were in college in Butte and then took them to Pacific Recycling for hundreds of dollars were also participating in a form of recycle mining.
    “To me, if you don’t eat it, then it’s not a point of pride”. -Matt Rinella

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNH20FowlHunter View Post
    Sooner or later all the things in the ground are going to run out. Then what?
    We start mining our landfills.
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by huronmtns View Post
    "Recycle Mining" I can almost picture a 100 or so years from now, geologists will be sampling the heavily used skeet and trap range locations for lead deposits. There should be a fairly significant concentrated lead deposit at these locations.

    The bottom line is, if there is enough demand for a material someone is going to find a way to get it.
    Thats been done for years. The gun club my dad and I belonged to when I was younger did this and get some pretty decent revenue out of it.
    Btw I see your from Marquette. I lived in that area from 1995 until last summer. I rather enjoyed the mild Montana winters this year as compared to Marquette!
    Last edited by BWALKER77; 05-17-2018 at 10:52 AM.

  19. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MNH20FowlHunter View Post
    Okay so I think we can all agree on 2 things. 1. Human population isn't going to shrink anytime soon (pending some horrific event) 2. Humans consume natural resources.
    As hunters, we should know our past, that natural resources are finite and need to be managed.
    Here are to of many scenarios agreeing upon those to facts stated above:

    1 We stay on the path we are what are we even doing here trying to protect the land and water? Its just all going to be mined and over populated anyways. Sooner or later all the things in the ground are going to run out. Then what?

    2. How about lets take the time now while we still have the resources, to focus our attention on trying to come up alternative solutions, different type of materials, things of that nature. What those are I don't know. I'm not smart enough. I saw a commercial the other day where it was either Exon or BP is making oil from algae. So I saw lets be forward thinking try and get ahead of this stuff before we have to mine everything little thing out of this earth. One way to do that is to make resource extraction less appealing. Yes that may mean it costs more for people like me and you buy those new things but we are by far the wealthiest nation in the world.

    That's why I'm standing behind "wrong mine, wrong place" Lets protect some of these areas until we absolutely have to mine them until we have exhausted all other avenues. We are the greatest nation in the world. Lets demand better. Lets challenge the status quo. One doesn't achieve greatness by sitting back and just going "well it worked before lets just keep doing it". Greatness comes from doing things that has never been done before.

    I drive a truck, shoot guns, burn gas, use plastic, use copper, iron, hell I use the precious metals that go into the components that are inside the computer i'm typing this from. With that said I want better, I want different choices.
    As of the present there are no alternatives. Thus, at this point in time we need to responsibly mine these reources where they are found.

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    We start mining our landfills.
    yep.

  21. Default

    One other thing to consider. Is it in the best interest of the planet to mine minerals here in the US where we have pretty stringent protections or other countries that dont?
    A collegue worked at a gold mine at one time that was in, I believe, Papua New Guinea. Tailings from the mine were pumped straight out into the ocean.

  22. #47
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    I'm a self-admitted, not in my backyard guy. And I view my backyard as 'Merica. So I'd take a horrible mine in Papa New Guinea over about any mine in the US. But I realize that it's clearly a selfish decision, and not in the best interests of the planet as a whole.
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWALKER77 View Post
    As of the present there are no alternatives. Thus, at this point in time we need to responsibly mine these resources where they are found.
    Correct there aren't any. I even said I don't know what those would even be. My point was lets make mining a little more difficult because that will put pressure on us as a race to come up with those new ideas. Lets get ahead of this curve so we don't have mine landfills once we mined everything else up. Lets get ahead of the curve and see if we can come up with some sort of new idea/method/material. Just saying its there mine it, we will worry about it when its gone is the easy way out. My challenge is lets try and come up with something new now before we run out. That way in the future we aren't caught with our pants down. Will it be hard, yup. Will it be inconvenient, yup. Will we fail, most likely. But if we don't try then what are we doing here?

    Worst case scenario we never come up with that new thing and have to mine every spot we can. At least we save some of the most pristine areas until the bitter end.

    Best case scenario we come up with that new thing and never have to put those pristine areas at risk.

    For me the Boundary Waters is one of those pristine areas. Yes the potential mine won't be in the Boundary Waters but it will be in the same watershed.

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by MNH20FowlHunter View Post
    Sooner or later all the things in the ground are going to run out. Then what?
    A very old and and very tired argument that has repeatedly been disproved - for example, see, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo...3Ehrlich_wager
    "Freedom is NOT Free"

  25. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MNH20FowlHunter View Post
    Correct there aren't any. I even said I don't know what those would even be. My point was lets make mining a little more difficult because that will put pressure on us as a race to come up with those new ideas. Lets get ahead of this curve so we don't have mine landfills once we mined everything else up. Lets get ahead of the curve and see if we can come up with some sort of new idea/method/material. Just saying its there mine it, we will worry about it when its gone is the easy way out. My challenge is lets try and come up with something new now before we run out. That way in the future we aren't caught with our pants down. Will it be hard, yup. Will it be inconvenient, yup. Will we fail, most likely. But if we don't try then what are we doing here?

    Worst case scenario we never come up with that new thing and have to mine every spot we can. At least we save some of the most pristine areas until the bitter end.

    Best case scenario we come up with that new thing and never have to put those pristine areas at risk.

    For me the Boundary Waters is one of those pristine areas. Yes the potential mine won't be in the Boundary Waters but it will be in the same watershed.
    I owned and operated a fishing lodge just north and a bit west of the BWCA in a remote and pristine area. Over the years of living there I discovered several old uranium mines and there was a operating gold mine just to the south. The area still had all the characteristics of the BWCA. The fact is the market dictates best when to transition to new technologies. Now isn't the time as we are not even remotely close to running out of mineable minerals.
    Essentially what you are arguing for is NIMBY'ism and a pushing of mining activity into the thirld world where regulations are few and fare between.

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