Wyoming Pronghorn Numbers

I would HATE for them to push the draw dates back for any reason! It is so nice to know your status in WY before you have to apply in other states. If they push the draw dates back they are going to lose a lot of people who just can't take the chance of not getting drawn especially given the point creep that has happened the last few years. For example, if you are a NR with 2 or less elk points and want a general permit, no way can you wait until May/June to see if you get lucky in WY. From the state of WY's perspective, it has a good thing going being the first state where people hope to get a license apply then fall back to another state if that doesn't work out.

Back on topic, due to the modest increases and decreases, this is exactly how I would want biologists to set tag quotas.....some go up some go down depending on population and habitat dynamics.

MNElkNut said:

I would HATE for them to push the draw dates back for any reason! It is so nice to know your status in WY before you have to apply in other states. If they push the draw dates back they are going to lose a lot of people who just can't take the chance of not getting drawn especially given the point creep that has happened the last few years. For example, if you are a NR with 2 or less elk points and want a general permit, no way can you wait until May/June to see if you get lucky in WY. From the state of WY's perspective, it has a good thing going being the first state where people hope to get a license apply then fall back to another state if that doesn't work out.

Back on topic, due to the modest increases and decreases, this is exactly how I would want biologists to set tag quotas.....some go up some go down depending on population and habitat dynamics.

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I don't agree, the early draw is impacting NR and R quotas and also season setting. Your convenience shouldn't trump wasting money, making quotas tougher to manage, and causing other impacts to biologists and hunters. Across the board, every biologist I talk to says the same thing that the early elk draw creates a lot of extra work for them, unnecessary work. I also think you're out of your depth when you make claims regarding "Wyoming's perspective" on this issue. What qualifies you to claim what Wyoming's perspective is? Further, how does that reconcile with the reality from the people it impacts? You know, the people that are dealing with the fall-out for your convenience...

Every elk tag, every year is going to be sold in WY, we aren't a dumping ground for elk hunters that don't draw in other states.

Buzz, great points. When I stated that about WY's perspective, that is merely my opinion as a NR who is attempting to hunt in WY as much as possible. It used to be every year, now it is every 3. Should the drawing deadline move that far back, it may leave me no choice but to choose another state. I talked to someone else today and they felt the same. Would that impact overall NR numbers in WY? I think it would but could easily be wrong. I don't think the current process is bad. If 1 or 2 hunters are inconvenienced because of a change, that is better than hundreds or thousands due to a date change in my book. Not sure what you mean by unnecessary work...seems it all has to get done no matter when the draw is, but I will shut up and listen!

MNElkNut said:

Buzz, great points. When I stated that about WY's perspective, that is merely my opinion as a NR who is attempting to hunt in WY as much as possible. It used to be every year, now it is every 3. Should the drawing deadline move that far back, it may leave me no choice but to choose another state. I talked to someone else today and they felt the same. Would that impact overall NR numbers in WY? I think it would but could easily be wrong. I don't think the current process is bad. If 1 or 2 hunters are inconvenienced because of a change, that is better than hundreds or thousands due to a date change in my book. Not sure what you mean by unnecessary work...seems it all has to get done no matter when the draw is, but I will shut up and listen!

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Pronghorn and deer applications aren't due till the end of May and those hunts keep getting more and more popular... not sure why elk would be any different.

Honestly if anything wouldn't a May 31st app date be better? Then you would have heard from practically every other state with the exception of Idaho?

It's more than an inconvenience to 1 or 2 hunters. The NR app booklet doesn't list the full limitations for a given hunt nor the dates of those limitations. As a nr you have a license in your hand before you know when and where it's valid. The bio's haven't even done their Elk counts prior to the draw being done and licenses issued.

MNElkNut said:

Buzz, great points. When I stated that about WY's perspective, that is merely my opinion as a NR who is attempting to hunt in WY as much as possible. It used to be every year, now it is every 3. Should the drawing deadline move that far back, it may leave me no choice but to choose another state. I talked to someone else today and they felt the same. Would that impact overall NR numbers in WY? I think it would but could easily be wrong. I don't think the current process is bad. If 1 or 2 hunters are inconvenienced because of a change, that is better than hundreds or thousands due to a date change in my book. Not sure what you mean by unnecessary work...seems it all has to get done no matter when the draw is, but I will shut up and listen!

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Great discussion, and I see your point completely. I agree that knowing if you draw earlier is always a nice bonus for the hunter. Judging by the popularity of big-game hunting in Wyoming...and how fast almost all available leftover elk tags were/are snapped up from the leftover draw and first come, first serve...there is not much to worry about in regard to Wyoming selling out their elk tags. All big-game is managed very well here, and unlike other states, Wyoming isn't a "wait and see if we draw something better" state. That's pretty evident in the rapid and continual increase in applicants Wyoming has seen.

But, here are the list of impacts to the department and the average hunter:

1. In the case of quota changes between the NR and R draw, either R or NR hunters are shorted tags in LQ units. In some cases, if new seasons are proposed between the draws, which has happened in the past, NR hunters don't get a chance at any of those tags.

2. In the case of accessing some private land, where land owners only offer a certain number of trespass hunts, Residents are not getting a chance to acquire permission as all the available access is taken by NR hunters.

3. From the department standpoint, they have to try to "guess" what they are anticipating doing with quotas, seasons, etc. before they have a lot of the data they need. It means that they have to hold meetings to try to predict what the elk populations are going to do, what the winter impacts may be, what the bull to cow ratio's will be, etc. etc., before its possible to know. The problem is that if things change, like a bad winter, there are already a bunch of tags issued that are tough, if not impossible, to pull back. The result is to slash Resident opportunity, or just let the season play out and hope for the best. Like has been posted, there are issues with the season structures changing between the time people apply and when they draw. Its ridiculous that some have said the hunters should check to make sure things don't change after they apply. However the cause, is because the biologists wait as long as possible to gather all the data they can and to wait to see how weather may or may not impact the herds.

4. Additional funding is needed to conduct 2 draws rather than just 1.

It just makes sense to get the horse in front of the cart. Finalize the quotas in April/Early May, get the commission approval, everyone will know how many tags are available, etc. and then hold the draw so that everyone is on a level playing field. All the best data will be acquired and correct decisions applied to do what's best for the hunting public and wildlife.

I totally get the convenience part and people wanting to know as early as possible for planning. Every year, I have a bunch of applications out all at the same time not knowing if I'll draw any, or too many tags. I roll the dice and take my chances, I suspect it would be no different with Wyoming if there was one draw date.

Its not something I'm going to fall on a sword over, but I think there is more valid reasons to have one draw, one time, for everyone than to continue with the early NR elk draw.

Just things to consider and think about.

Certainly more complex than I was thinking at first.

I will address the "wouldn't a May 31st date be better so you will have heard from every state..."question from WLLM1313:

Not at all in my mind. If the date is moved after the other states and I want to hunt, I cannot wait and hope I get drawn in WY. I have to apply in MT or CO or somewhere before WY would draw so I wont even apply in WY. You cannot use WY as a fallback state because getting a tag is so uncertain (that is how a preference point system works-I wont draw via pp until I have enough leaving the off years as only potential via the random draw). I cannot take the chance on drawing via the random draw so I have to go somewhere else. (and given my luck in the random draw....!) Sure, in the years I KNOW I will draw, I can try WY, but then if I become a victim of point creep, I only have CO and ID as OTC options.

I don't want this discussion to be about "me", but rather give the perspective of Joe Public the nonresident. but having said that, I love the way it is so I can hopefully draw my favorite spot (WY General tag) and if that doesn't work I have a sure thing in a fall back state and not be relegated to OTC CO or ID.

Thanks for the discussion!

madtom said:

Good luck if you decide to apply. I have nonresident relatives who have marginal points for the antelope tag they want, and I'm afraid we'll see a spike in the points needed to draw this year because of the fee increase and people dumping points.

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I think point creep will still continue, but I think people that were worried about the price increase got out last year before the increase. I'm not worried about the tags I am going after in WY, have yet to be blind sided, but I am sure one day I will.

madtom said:

Chapter 44. REGULATION FOR ISSUANCE OF LICENSES, PERMITS, STAMPS, TAGS, PREFERENCE POINTS AND COMPETITIVE RAFFLE CHANCES
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/March_CH-44_Final.pdf

Show me where it's a violation now that I've shown you the reg that you've clearly never read.
I was referring to moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and bison - all of which have app deadlines long before the regs are approved while the world continues to spin. I think a later draw would be great. I also think you're off your rocker with this statute violation crap.

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First off, it would be nice if you would kindly revert to being an adult if you're going to continue in this discussion, as I have read through that entire lengthy Reg. more than once and I don't appreciate being told I'm off my rocker on what I know is fact! It's actually very simple in that the Reg. tells you what the G&F can do and how they do it. The FACT is that they are doing what the Reg. doesn't authorize in writing that makes them in violation and I don't know how to "splain" it to you any better than that! BuzzH just made a great post explaining all of the various problems created and extra money needed because they have that early draw. Finally, the top G&F brass has readily admitted that they are not following the letter of the law on more than one occasion in the past when this early draw has been brought up.

Topgun 30-06 said:

First off, it would be nice if you would kindly revert to being an adult if you're going to continue in this discussion, as I have read through that entire lengthy Reg. more than once and I don't appreciate being told I'm off my rocker on what I know is fact! It's actually very simple in that the Reg. tells you what the G&F can do and how they do it. The FACT is that they are doing what the Reg. doesn't authorize in writing that makes them in violation and I don't know how to "splain" it to you any better than that! BuzzH just made a great post explaining all of the various problems created and extra money needed because they have that early draw. Finally, the top G&F brass has readily admitted that they are not following the letter of the law on more than one occasion in the past when this early draw has been brought up.

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I just got done going through the reg. I’m not seeing what they are violating. Could you point out the section that shows the reg they are violating and what exactly they are violating for someone who hasn’t seen the reg as much?

Doesn’t really make sense that the commission would violate their own regulations when they could just change them.

Also, which “top brass” has said they are violating the reg out of curiousity?

Topgun 30-06 said:

First off, it would be nice if you would kindly revert to being an adult if you're going to continue in this discussion, as I have read through that entire lengthy Reg. more than once and I don't appreciate being told I'm off my rocker on what I know is fact! It's actually very simple in that the Reg. tells you what the G&F can do and how they do it. The FACT is that they are doing what the Reg. doesn't authorize in writing that makes them in violation and I don't know how to "splain" it to you any better than that! BuzzH just made a great post explaining all of the various problems created and extra money needed because they have that early draw. Finally, the top G&F brass has readily admitted that they are not following the letter of the law on more than one occasion in the past when this early draw has been brought up.

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I stand behind what I said on my assessment of your cognitive fortitude.

I would LOVE to be shown an example of WGFD "brass" telling you they aren't following laws... You should consider rounding up a lawyer to help you in your crusade against imaginary crimes.

icebreaker12 said:

I just got done going through the reg. I’m not seeing what they are violating. Could you point out the section that shows the reg they are violating and what exactly they are violating for someone who hasn’t seen the reg as much?

Doesn’t really make sense that the commission would violate their own regulations when they could just change them.

Also, which “top brass” has said they are violating the reg out of curiousity?

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Good to see there are still reasonable people on this forum.

icebreaker12 said:

I just got done going through the reg. I’m not seeing what they are violating. Could you point out the section that shows the reg they are violating and what exactly they are violating for someone who hasn’t seen the reg as much?

Doesn’t really make sense that the commission would violate their own regulations when they could just change them.

Also, which “top brass” has said they are violating the reg out of curiousity?

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I really don't know how I can explain it any better than I, WB, or BuzzH have in our posts. As a Government agency the G&F, which is overseen by the Commission that is appointed by the Governor, can only do what they are authorized by Statute. The way they run the entire application operation, PPS, draws, etc. are all spelled out and that is what is written at length in Reg. 44. It does not give them the option to have the draws any time they feel like it and that's basically what they've done by having the NR draw two months before the Final Regulations are voted on, approved, and then posted on the official G&F website. I agree that it doesn't make any sense for them to violate their own Regulation like they're doing, but I guess maybe they feel they are above the law and unless it would go to the AG or court that they will leave it as it's been for quite a few years. Your guess is as good as mine on that. By "top brass" I was referring to the commission itself and not any G&F civil servant.

madtom said:

I stand behind what I said on my assessment of your cognitive fortitude.

I would LOVE to be shown an example of WGFD "brass" telling you they aren't following laws... You should consider rounding up a lawyer to help you in your crusade against imaginary crimes.



Good to see there are still reasonable people on this forum.

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The only unreasonable person on this thread is yourself and there is more than one person besides myself that has said you're wrong and, by the way, I thought you said you were done posting on this thread! Maybe you should listen to what you stated since you're digging a deeper hole with every post and they are not very "adult like"!

Topgun 30-06 said:

The only unreasonable person on this thread is yourself and there is more than one person besides myself that has said you're wrong and, by the way, I thought you said you were done posting on this thread! Maybe you should listen to what you stated since you're digging a deeper hole with every post and they are not very "adult like"!

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I don't know how I'm digging a deeper hole for myself when I'm simply asking you to:

1. Find the verbiage in the regulation that details when a drawing can take place (hint: it's not there).
2. Provide a specific example (with dates and names) of a WGFD representative telling you and/or others that they are knowingly violating this regulation (hint: you can't, because it didn't really happen).

I don't understand how asking for clarification constitutes digging myself into a hole. I am trying to understand, but your convoluted replies all lack substance and don't clarify anything.

Topgun 30-06 said:

I really don't know how I can explain it any better than I, WB, or BuzzH have in our posts. As a Government agency the G&F, which is overseen by the Commission that is appointed by the Governor, can only do what they are authorized by Statute. The way they run the entire application operation, PPS, draws, etc. are all spelled out and that is what is written at length in Reg. 44. It does not give them the option to have the draws any time they feel like it and that's basically what they've done by having the NR draw two months before the Final Regulations are voted on, approved, and then posted on the official G&F website. I agree that it doesn't make any sense for them to violate their own Regulation like they're doing, but I guess maybe they feel they are above the law and unless it would go to the AG or court that they will leave it as it's been for quite a few years. Your guess is as good as mine on that. By "top brass" I was referring to the commission itself and not any G&F civil servant.

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I'm asking you to point out exactly in Ch44 where it says the things your are claiming? You and WB can explain all you want, but I want to be able to read the rules for myself. It would really surprise me, if a state agency which I am sure has their own lawyers would violate their own regulations. In addition, these regs go through the governor, and I am sure he has lawyers reviewing them as well. Buzz, that I have seen, hasn't said they are violating any state statute or any regs. Just that the timing isn't ideal (Buzz jump in and correct me if I am wrong.)

Topgun 30-06 said:

What I stated is right on the money. The Tentative Regulations were posted when the application periods opened right after the new year. There is a big fuss right now because a number of NRs applied for the Type 1 elk tags in units 41 and 45 thinking they would buy the archery permit that allows them to hunt the last half of September. As things were updated during the month the G&F eliminated that possibility on 1/22/18 if it stays in the Regulation as written. Those that did not see that change and want to hunt both seasons and drew tags may be stuck with only being able to hunt the rifle season in October or try to appeal to the G&F to refund their money and PPs due to the change after they applied. The G&F actually violates their own statute by having the NR elk draw well before the Final Regulation is approved by the Commission in late April and this could very well bring that to a head if they leave that strike out of unit 41 & 45 tag Type 1 tag holders that prevents them from hunting the early archery season in September with that tag that they applied for and drew in good faith.

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Not going to argue about it. But the packet posted in early January isn’t proposed reg, and no where in the packet is there an opportunity to show changes like that. When proposed reg came out on 1/22 it showed the changes.

icebreaker12 said:

I'm asking you to point out exactly in Ch44 where it says the things your are claiming? You and WB can explain all you want, but I want to be able to read the rules for myself. It would really surprise me, if a state agency which I am sure has their own lawyers would violate their own regulations. In addition, these regs go through the governor, and I am sure he has lawyers reviewing them as well. Buzz, that I have seen, hasn't said they are violating any state statute or any regs. Just that the timing isn't ideal (Buzz jump in and correct me if I am wrong.)

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Go back and read my posts, 37, 40, and 45. I never said they were in violation as it pertains to the tentative changes. I listed what the dept can and can't do, per regulation.
The problem with the Jan 22 regulation posting is that it doesn't show all the tentative changes.

icebreaker12 said:

Not going to argue about it. But the packet posted in early January isn’t proposed reg, and no where in the packet is there an opportunity to show changes like that. When proposed reg came out on 1/22 it showed the changes.

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You certainly are continuing to argue about it and both the comments in your first sentence are absolutely wrong! May I ask how old you are and how long you've hunted out in Wyoming to be the expert that you aren't?! I started in 1992 and have not missed a season out there since 1998, spend two full months or more every fall out there, and have probably forgotten more than a lot of NRs and residents know about the Wyoming laws and regulations! The "packet" you continue to refer to regarding the Tentative Regulations was right in the same section on the website as the previous year and it went up there a day or two after the new year when the application period opened just like I stated in an earlier post. As soon as it's posted like it was, there can be changes and updates made by the G&F daily on it, so you're wrong on that comment too! That is exactly why there is a big ruckus now about the strikeout for the Type 1 tags no longer being able to hunt during the September archery season in units 41 and 45 because it was up for almost three weeks and was the same as in 2017 until the update on 1/22 well after many had already applied. NRs that even knew where to look before they applied saw there was no change when they applied before 1/22. To expect them to continue looking every day until February like our member stated to see if any changes were made is complete BS! Many that drew the Type 1 tag may still not know about that change unless they have read about it here on this website or on MM or happened to go back onto the G&F Hunt Planner where the change is now posted for both units, but it wasn't until late January just like in the Tentative Regulation section. Right now the ones that do know of the tentative change are calling, emailing, and writing letters to the Commissioners asking that it be removed because they applied in good faith that things would be the same as 2017 and the change was made well after they applied. I'm human and make a mistake every once in a while just like everyone else, but everything I have stated in this thread is accurate. I'm sorry if things aren't written so that everyone that reads them can follow them, but it's probably a lot easier for me since I dealt with a couple hundred laws and regulations every day for 30+ years during my career before I retired in 2002. Many times things are not spelled out very well and I can certainly understand why a couple of you are wanting exact verbiage that's just not there for you to read like you or I would like it. I'm not going to post anything further to our other member who can't seem to post like an adult, so he can read it here, but the fact is that this early draw has been addressed more than a couple times at various Commission meetings when they admitted they were violating their own rules and those meeting are on the record! I have no plan to waste my time going back through hundreds of hours of tapes to find a quick sentence or two somewhere just to validate my statement and appease him, but I really have no reason to say what I have if it hadn't happened! Also, please read the post closely that WB just made to you, as maybe that will help more than what I have tried to explain to the two of you!

Topgun 30-06 said:

You certainly are continuing to argue about it and both the comments in your first sentence are absolutely wrong! May I ask how old you are and how long you've hunted out in Wyoming to be the expert that you aren't?! I started in 1992 and have not missed a season out there since 1998, spend two full months or more every fall out there, and have probably forgotten more than a lot of NRs and residents know about the Wyoming laws and regulations! The "packet" you continue to refer to regarding the Tentative Regulations was right in the same section on the website as the previous year and it went up there a day or two after the new year when the application period opened just like I stated in an earlier post. As soon as it's posted like it was, there can be changes and updates made by the G&F daily on it, so you're wrong on that comment too! That is exactly why there is a big ruckus now about the strikeout for the Type 1 tags no longer being able to hunt during the September archery season in units 41 and 45 because it was up for almost three weeks and was the same as in 2017 until the update on 1/22 well after many had already applied. NRs that even knew where to look before they applied saw there was no change when they applied before 1/22. To expect them to continue looking every day until February like our member stated to see if any changes were made is complete BS! Many that drew the Type 1 tag may still not know about that change unless they have read about it here on this website or on MM or happened to go back onto the G&F Hunt Planner where the change is now posted for both units, but it wasn't until late January just like in the Tentative Regulation section. Right now the ones that do know of the tentative change are calling, emailing, and writing letters to the Commissioners asking that it be removed because they applied in good faith that things would be the same as 2017 and the change was made well after they applied. I'm human and make a mistake every once in a while just like everyone else, but everything I have stated in this thread is accurate. I'm sorry if things aren't written so that everyone that reads them can follow them, but it's probably a lot easier for me since I dealt with a couple hundred laws and regulations every day for 30+ years during my career before I retired in 2002. Many times things are not spelled out very well and I can certainly understand why a couple of you are wanting exact verbiage that's just not there for you to read like you or I would like it. I'm not going to post anything further to our other member who can't seem to post like an adult, so he can read it here, but the fact is that this early draw has been addressed more than a couple times at various Commission meetings when they admitted they were violating their own rules and those meeting are on the record! I have no plan to waste my time going back through hundreds of hours of tapes to find a quick sentence or two somewhere just to validate my statement and appease him, but I really have no reason to say what I have if it hadn't happened! Also, please read the post closely that WB just made to you, as maybe that will help more than what I have tried to explain to the two of you!

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Reading this in Mandarin would make more sense that what you've tried to explain to us.

Do you suppose it's possible that drawing dates are not included in Chapter 44 because it's not part of that (or any other) regulation? Anecdotes about what someone may (or likely did not) have said one time umpteen years ago make a neat barstool story, but that's about it.

madtom said:

I stand behind what I said on my assessment of your cognitive fortitude.

I would LOVE to be shown an example of WGFD "brass" telling you they aren't following laws... You should consider rounding up a lawyer to help you in your crusade against imaginary crimes.



Good to see there are still reasonable people on this forum.

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Apparently you define reasonable as one who agrees with you - not an uncommon definition on the internet.