Montana Mountain Goat HD Closures

EYJONAS! said:

Are they still planning that goat kill off in Washington. If so maybe they could transplant them over here instead......ya right. That'd be a little spendy i think for that to get approved.

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BuzzH said:

Here is what I've found in my research...and from talking to some people who definitely know about the goats.

For starters there's this:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._1960-2015_and_field_biologists'_perspectives

I've read through this and the report by Jessy Coltrane.

Of particular importance is the level of harvest, and how small that number can be, before the native goat populations begin to see significant decreases.

Its pretty obvious that even moderate amounts of harvest can really do long-term, and from what I've seen, permanent damage to native goat herds. To the point that herd recovery simply wont happen.

I have a good friend that goat hunted the Sapphires before that season was ultimately closed. He drew a few tags in a relatively short time and saw decreased numbers of goats throughout the span of the years he drew. The hunt no longer exists, and despite the season being closed for a long time, that herd just isn't recovering, and IMO, never will. Its hanging on by a thread. The research seems to indicate that once you shoot goats down to a certain point, herd recovery just doesn't happen because of high mortality of young, plus the fact that in some cases, nannies don't reproduce until they're 5 or 6 years old. Meaning, they just don't have a long time where they can produce off-spring.

Its the same exact story in the Bitterroots...I remember for a long, long time there was a quota of 75 goat tags, valid for any drainage in unit 240. I also remember when it dropped to 50 tags, and finally when they went with tags valid by drainage. Again, I think those goats have reached the point where recovery isn't going to happen and will likely be shut down to hunting.

When this proposal that you're talking about was brought to my attention, I immediately got in touch with Roy Jacobs, who knows most all the areas in question that goat hunting is being stopped. He has talked with Jessy quite a bit and feels that her population estimates are pretty well in line with what is actually on the ground. Are a few goats being missed in surveys? Sure, you're never going to get them all. But Roy felt like the season closures were justified. We talked about whether or not the herds would recover if given time...the conclusion we came to is that optimism is pretty low.

Also worth noting is some of the stuff that Chadwick says in his book are pretty much coming true that native goat populations in Montana are not seeing the best of times and may very well be on the way of the passenger pigeon. It may take a long time, but I'm afraid that with some of the native herds...its just flat to late. Its a shame really, and its tough to completely throw the MTFWP under the bus...they just didn't have a lot of data in the 60's, 70's. But I can tell you that by the time my Brother drew a goat tag in Kootenai Creek in unit 240 in 1987, that the FWP knew goats were on the decline, if not on the ropes then. IIRC, that was the first year they went to drainage specific tags and again, IIRC, there were either 3 or 4 tags issued for the drainage.

I don't know what else to say other than in hind-sight I wish the quotas wouldn't have been so aggressive for so long. I'd also be more inclined to cut the MTFWP some slack if this was the only thing they've been too heavy handed on in regard to harvest. Its just not, though...just another in the long list of major mistakes.

I want to be wrong about this very badly, and would like to see the native goats bounce back. But, I cant be optimistic when I see what's happened in these units, as well as the sapphires and unit 240. I have a feeling its going to be a long time, if ever, when those goats are hunted again.

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Nameless Range said:

Seems like with mountain goats struggling, it is all the more reason to join the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance.

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rmyoung1 said:

Agreed. This thread has been eye-opening, for sure. As a nonresident with 13 points (age 40), I always assumed that MT would be a place we’re i could eventually hunt a billy. Over a 25% reduction in tags for nonresidents this year is depressing. Time to join a worthy organization and contribute to a worthy cause.

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BuzzH said:

I wouldn't ever dissuade anyone from applying for tags, or joining worthwhile groups. But there is a bigger picture here...and that is, will it do any good to throw a gob of money at issues like this?

For the last 20 years, I've seen mountains of cash being thrown at all kinds of species, on dozens and dozens of "fixes"...mule deer, sheep, goats, and moose...and yet populations and opportunity for all of those is actually worse now than 20 years ago.

IMO, rather than just throwing money, like a bucket of chit, all over the wall to see what sticks, I think we need to focus efforts, money, and time a lot more than we currently do. Perhaps time to pull back to the 10K foot view and realign priorities and be more wise with how we attempt to tackle some of these problems. Maybe time to get serious and admit what the real problems are...and invest in trying to solve those.

As harsh as it may sound, there may be certain herds that trying to "help" by throwing gobs of money at them, may be an exercise in futility and throwing good money at bad. Maybe a better approach is to use those as a learning tool, monitor, and try not to screw up herds that you can make a difference on. Herds where its not too late to do the right thing.

I don't know...just more to consider as we all try to do the right thing for wildlife.

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whiskeydog said:

MT FWP posted this short video on their FB page last week. In it, they say the native herds are struggling, while introduced herds are doing well. Any idea why that would be the case??

https://www.facebook.com/MontanaFWP/videos/1719512131425298/

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MTGomer said:

How about doing away with the 7 year wait for people that harvest a Billy and making the tag once in a lifetime for people that harvest a nanny.

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brownbear932008 said:

I actually watched the RMGA video last night to study up in case I ever get so lucky as to draw in my lifetime. I have noticed the crazies tag numbers just keep dropping down to 15 this year I've been wondering what has been going on with goat numbers. Do you think with the RMGA counts they are getting better counts than F&G was getting from Ariel survey's?

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