Montana Mountain Goat HD Closures

Today I went to put in for Moose, Sheep and Goat and was extremely disappointed to find that HD 131, in addition to HD's 132, 134, 141, 414 and 442, are now closed to goat hunting. Clearly I did not pay close enough attention to FWP's proposed changes.

I am aware of the history of goat hunting in the Bitterroot and Crazy Mountains and I am curious about FWP's management plan in these newly closed HD's and what prompted the closures. I personally have seen a decent number of goats in the Missions this year.

This change is a long time coming - "In all hunting districts in Regions 1, 2 and 4 it is illegal to take a female mountain goat accompanying a kid or a female mountain goat in a group that contains one or more kids." I propose a longer wait period for folks that kill a nanny.

Any further info or thoughts? BuzzH?

Thanks,
PaulRevere

Looks like the number of tags got cut to one in 330 where I drew last year. The biologist called me late during the season after I had killed my goat, and asked me a bunch of questions as to how many goats I had seen and where. She said the other two hunters had called and complained about not seeing any goats.... which I kind of undertand. But we saw goats on every trip in... just no big mature billies. With just one tag this year, the "lucky" hunter will have lots of room to roam.

I think it's a combination of a lot of things but in talking to Pete with RMGA those units continue to put up lower and declining numbers in some areas. That's obviously the main reason for the shutdown. As far as the nanny with a kid rule, how are they truly gonna enforce that, and how many nannies will get killed with a 1 year old kid with them. We truly need to implement a billy only system for a lot of these areas and give good education on goats. I know Alaska has some kind of a quiz or test one can take. RMGA has a great video on identification comparing billies and nannies. I am a firm believer way too many young nannies just coming into prime breeding age are harvested which puts a huge hit on the whole population.

I actually watched the RMGA video last night to study up in case I ever get so lucky as to draw in my lifetime. I have noticed the crazies tag numbers just keep dropping down to 15 this year I've been wondering what has been going on with goat numbers. Do you think with the RMGA counts they are getting better counts than F&G was getting from Ariel survey's?

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brownbear932008 said:

I actually watched the RMGA video last night to study up in case I ever get so lucky as to draw in my lifetime. I have noticed the crazies tag numbers just keep dropping down to 15 this year I've been wondering what has been going on with goat numbers. Do you think with the RMGA counts they are getting better counts than F&G was getting from Ariel survey's?

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Not having done one myself I can't say they're better but they can't hurt. According to Pete though he says they're very successful it seems to help a tremendous amount in conjunction with flights. I know some of their counts down in southwest mt have actually lead to the opening of completely new districts for goat hunting. I intend to participate this year. According to Pete and some biologist their feedback is we have a fairly high mortality rate on nannies and with their already low reproduction rate it's a mixture for disaster when it comes to populations.

Pete has told me that some of their surveys they conduct they have gotten better numbers with boots on the ground compared to the aerial survey conducted right around the same time. It happend last year in the Bridgers. Talking to a bio like Shawn or Julie they both say that their aerial surveys are not ideal. There's to many factors that come into play and they may only get 1 or 2 a year, some years none. Depending on who's got the aircraft and for what use.

brownbear932008 said:

I have noticed the crazies tag numbers just keep dropping down to 15 this year I've been wondering what has been going on with goat numbers.

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This is purely speculation, but didn't they give out a pile of them for a number of years? I'm guessing they were trying to reduce the population, which they might have accomplished and are now happy with where the numbers are at. I can't imagine giving out the number of tags they were a few years back was sustainable. Again, that's just a guess.

I don’t think aerial surveys alone are that great. I’ve flown in a little Cessna and seen a handful of goats in places I can find 50 in a weekend with my spotting scope.

I’ve snowshoed in to look for sheep in beartooth winter range and seen more in a weeekwnd than the bios saw from a helicopter just a couple days prior in the same spot

tjones said:

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hey tjones,

saw your post before you edited and you are right about the importance of hunters being involved and aware of FWP's proposed changes. i actually went to FWP's Missoula meeting on proposed regulation changes and after three hours never heard anything about moose, sheep or goat (still my own fault!!). this past summer i did a trip into the Missions and over two days saw a decent amount of goats which led me to this winter... using the old regulations, i chose HD 131 for goat. as a brand new hunter, i will always remember in the future to be current on proposed changes that may affect me.

also, i'm a lady.

also, love the edit! i blame Zinke too, he probably went out there personally and took down a bunch of goats!

PaulRevere said:

hey tjones,

saw your post before you edited and you are right about the importance of hunters being involved and aware of FWP's proposed changes. i actually went to FWP's Missoula meeting on proposed regulation changes and after three hours never heard anything about moose, sheep or goat (still my own fault!!). this past summer i did a trip into the Missions and over two days saw a decent amount of goats which led me to this winter... using the old regulations, i chose HD 131 for goat. as a brand new hunter, i will always remember in the future to be current on proposed changes that may affect me.

also, i'm a lady.

also, love the edit! i blame Zinke too, he probably went out there personally and took down a bunch of goats!

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Good on you for showing up. My guess is Missoula being R2 they didn't bring it up.

Sorry about the edit, I thought I was too harsh. I too want a goat before the tags get cut back hard or I am to old to chase them. Last year I put in for HD240, 2 permits. After applying I found out they cut it to 1. My fault but the odds sucked at 2, cut it to 1 and its really bad.

Tjones:


Do you remember when FWP use to issue 75 tags for 240? What do you think about goat management in the Bitterroot?? (Do you think Zinke got after those goats too?)

PaulRevere said:

Tjones:


Do you remember when FWP use to issue 75 tags for 240? What do you think about goat management in the Bitterroot?? (Do you think Zinke got after those goats too?)

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Yep, I do remember and still didn't draw one. I have flown with FWP a couple of times doing goat helicoptor counts. Great way to see the country.

Lots of speculation on why the decline, wolves, lions eagles etc,, the only thing we know is that we don't know. There use to be goat permits in HD 270 and HD 261. All gone now.

mdunc8 said:

This is purely speculation, but didn't they give out a pile of them for a number of years? I'm guessing they were trying to reduce the population, which they might have accomplished and are now happy with where the numbers are at. I can't imagine giving out the number of tags they were a few years back was sustainable. Again, that's just a guess.

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That makes sense I read some articles that stated with the high population numbers biologist where afraid of a crash in population. They where up to I think 84 at one time unreal. I was worried there may be issues hoping not.

brownbear932008 said:

That makes sense I read some articles that stated with the high population numbers biologist where afraid of a crash in population. They where up to I think 84 at one time unreal. I was worried there may be issues hoping not.

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That's correct, I can't remember what year it was in either the 70s or 80s I read that the crazies actually had a die off because of over population.

PaulRevere said:

Today I went to put in for Moose, Sheep and Goat and was extremely disappointed to find that HD 131, in addition to HD's 132, 134, 141, 414 and 442, are now closed to goat hunting. Clearly I did not pay close enough attention to FWP's proposed changes.

I am aware of the history of goat hunting in the Bitterroot and Crazy Mountains and I am curious about FWP's management plan in these newly closed HD's and what prompted the closures. I personally have seen a decent number of goats in the Missions this year.

This change is a long time coming - "In all hunting districts in Regions 1, 2 and 4 it is illegal to take a female mountain goat accompanying a kid or a female mountain goat in a group that contains one or more kids." I propose a longer wait period for folks that kill a nanny.

Any further info or thoughts? BuzzH?

Thanks,
PaulRevere

Click to expand...

Here is what I've found in my research...and from talking to some people who definitely know about the goats.

For starters there's this:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._1960-2015_and_field_biologists'_perspectives

I've read through this and the report by Jessy Coltrane.

Of particular importance is the level of harvest, and how small that number can be, before the native goat populations begin to see significant decreases.

Its pretty obvious that even moderate amounts of harvest can really do long-term, and from what I've seen, permanent damage to native goat herds. To the point that herd recovery simply wont happen.

I have a good friend that goat hunted the Sapphires before that season was ultimately closed. He drew a few tags in a relatively short time and saw decreased numbers of goats throughout the span of the years he drew. The hunt no longer exists, and despite the season being closed for a long time, that herd just isn't recovering, and IMO, never will. Its hanging on by a thread. The research seems to indicate that once you shoot goats down to a certain point, herd recovery just doesn't happen because of high mortality of young, plus the fact that in some cases, nannies don't reproduce until they're 5 or 6 years old. Meaning, they just don't have a long time where they can produce off-spring.

Its the same exact story in the Bitterroots...I remember for a long, long time there was a quota of 75 goat tags, valid for any drainage in unit 240. I also remember when it dropped to 50 tags, and finally when they went with tags valid by drainage. Again, I think those goats have reached the point where recovery isn't going to happen and will likely be shut down to hunting.

When this proposal that you're talking about was brought to my attention, I immediately got in touch with Roy Jacobs, who knows most all the areas in question that goat hunting is being stopped. He has talked with Jessy quite a bit and feels that her population estimates are pretty well in line with what is actually on the ground. Are a few goats being missed in surveys? Sure, you're never going to get them all. But Roy felt like the season closures were justified. We talked about whether or not the herds would recover if given time...the conclusion we came to is that optimism is pretty low.

Also worth noting is some of the stuff that Chadwick says in his book are pretty much coming true that native goat populations in Montana are not seeing the best of times and may very well be on the way of the passenger pigeon. It may take a long time, but I'm afraid that with some of the native herds...its just flat to late. Its a shame really, and its tough to completely throw the MTFWP under the bus...they just didn't have a lot of data in the 60's, 70's. But I can tell you that by the time my Brother drew a goat tag in Kootenai Creek in unit 240 in 1987, that the FWP knew goats were on the decline, if not on the ropes then. IIRC, that was the first year they went to drainage specific tags and again, IIRC, there were either 3 or 4 tags issued for the drainage.

I don't know what else to say other than in hind-sight I wish the quotas wouldn't have been so aggressive for so long. I'd also be more inclined to cut the MTFWP some slack if this was the only thing they've been too heavy handed on in regard to harvest. Its just not, though...just another in the long list of major mistakes.

I want to be wrong about this very badly, and would like to see the native goats bounce back. But, I cant be optimistic when I see what's happened in these units, as well as the sapphires and unit 240. I have a feeling its going to be a long time, if ever, when those goats are hunted again.

That is really sad stuff about the Bitterroot herd. Thanks for the info though guys. mtmuley

Based off what Buzz just said, we need to get strict about shooting nannies. I don’t know who concocted this new rule, but it’s not enforceable and won’t do much good.

How about if you shoot a Nannie you can never apply for special tags in MT again? Something more severe is needed.

The state of the goat populations in Montana is very sad to me. I really enjoy spending time in goat country and it just wouldn't be the same without those big white beasts roaming the cliffs. I have been very lucky to draw two goat tags in Montana and highly doubt that I will every receive another in the mail. Unfortunately, moose and sheep populations appear to also be on a downward spiral. I do know that FWP is starting to take the health of Mountain Goat herds seriously. I have been involved in a couple of disease testing capture operations the last few years.

That's great information Buzz. Thanks and theat I couldn't imagine trying to capture goats from a chopper that must be some kind of ride. I'm glad though they are trying to be proactive already. Goats are the least studied animals out there it seems but in my book the most majestic by far. I'd rather pull a goat tag than a sheep honestly.