Montana FWP - Eastern MT antelope management

What is their thought process or logic in the Giant lumping of units whether it's antelope, elk or deer? Is it lack of managers bios? Lazy? It really doesn't make sense like was mentioned for the size of area and diversity of weather, hunters and herds.
 
teamhoyt said:
As for your comment tjones on applying for tags that don't exist, don't see it ever happening. Our fwp does not manage proactively except as it applies to shooting everything that moves so we don't have food and security cover issues for the next.
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It happens more often then you think on all specie including moose, sheep and goat. Most never know it happens as they apply for the number of permits in the regs but never look to see what actually gets drawn. One needs to pay attention to permit changes both within and outside of adopted permit ranges. A few years back I applied for an antelope unit that got cut in half from the published permits.

Sometimes permit numbers go up after the deadline, I know a damn good elk unit that happened to this year. 10 permits added after the deadline. Ups and downs happen often, most don’t ever know.
 
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Schaaf said:
It gets progressively worse going from Glasgow to Havre. This past week I have spent some time roaming around the rough stuff close to the lake and have been surprised by how the animals have fared. I think one thing that helped this winter was the snow never developed a crust until a week into March.

Comparing it to 2010-11:

Glasgow is nowhere near as bad as that winter as well as areas going down near Glendive. I cant speak to comparisons farther down in SE MT.
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Agreed. Everything I've seen indicates this winter isn't nearly as bad as '10-'11. That spring there were a half dozen dead pronghorn in every snowdrift.
 
We were spared the worst of the winter in 10-11. This winter is much tougher. The only winter I can compare this year to is the winter of 78-79. There is still deep snow everywhere except the steep south facing slopes. In the mornings it is so hard I can walk on top with out breaking through. Hard to say how bad the winter kill is going to be. The winter of 10-11 spared much region 7 south of the Yellowstone. This winter did not.
 
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Lawnboy said:
What is their thought process or logic in the Giant lumping of units whether it's antelope, elk or deer? Is it lack of managers bios? Lazy? It really doesn't make sense like was mentioned for the size of area and diversity of weather, hunters and herds.
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I complained about some reg changes at a comment meeting a few years back. I knew the units well, I studied the proposed changes, and I questioned them on it. Frankly, I don’t think they were used to being confronted by facts and logic. By the end of the “conversation” the best that the FWP guy could come up with was “it simplifies the regulations.”

Hell, if that’s the criteria, we can cut the budget substantially and have high school students write the regs, IMO.

I don’t know who is pulling the strings with FWP, but it sure as hell isnt the sportsmen.
 
No change. MTFWP will make adjustments in 2019, when the ESA considers it a threatened specie in the region.
 
I haven't ever seen this much snow since I moved here in 2006. Normally we can pretty much see grass almost all winter long. I haven't seen any grass since December. In a normal year I might have 2-3 feet of snow piled up after cleaning the driveway with the tractor, this year I have piles over 8 feet. I've only seen 2 dead mule deer on the road so far but the ground is just now starting to peak out from the snow. I don't drive much where the antelope are and until the swamps drain after the melt I'm not really interested in venturing on the 2 track.
 
I've been through that area ranging from Broadus to Baker Colstrip and Forsyth. I'm no biologist, but in my opinion it's not looking good. I talked to a guy that's a outfitter and in his own words, it's pretty effed! He said he's been finding dead whitetail and antelope since mid February. One stretch of highway i counted 25 dead goats along the highway as it was one of the only places to get a bite to eat. It may not be a 2010 winter but it's gonna put a hurting on them again! Yet the FWP will still give out the top amount of tags they can.
 
How about south into northern WY? Gillette area in particular, did they have a bad winter does anyone know?
 
The difference between macro and micro management. Its hard on many fronts (cost, logistics, public willingness, etc) for states to manage herds in a micro management way. Yes its unfortunate that some localized (micro) herds that can be negatively impacted but as long as the entire herd throughout the region (macro) are not negatively impacted then great. This plays into the source/sink dynamic. Most states will manage to carry a herd above carrying capacity (k) just in case of unforeseen mortality (ie winter, predators, etc). This can allow for no change in quota for hunting licenses, unless the herd is negatively impacted in a severe way or hit multiple years.
 
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MNElkNut said:
How about south into northern WY? Gillette area in particular, did they have a bad winter does anyone know?
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Went through there last week in talking to some locals it wasn't that bad. Nothing Like 60 miles north of there.
 
MTGomer said:
Still about 3’ of snow on the level by Sarpy Creek last weekend.
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Im standing by Sarpy Creek right now. The snow has melted pretty good from south facing slopes now, but there is still a bunch in the flat areas.
 
CampRipleyLF said:
The difference between macro and micro management. Its hard on many fronts (cost, logistics, public willingness, etc) for states to manage herds in a micro management way. Yes its unfortunate that some localized (micro) herds that can be negatively impacted but as long as the entire herd throughout the region (macro) are not negatively impacted then great. This plays into the source/sink dynamic. Most states will manage to carry a herd above carrying capacity (k) just in case of unforeseen mortality (ie winter, predators, etc). This can allow for no change in quota for hunting licenses, unless the herd is negatively impacted in a severe way or hit multiple years.
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You lost me at "carry a herd above carrying capacity"...
 
CampRipleyLF said:
The difference between macro and micro management. Its hard on many fronts (cost, logistics, public willingness, etc) for states to manage herds in a micro management way. Yes its unfortunate that some localized (micro) herds that can be negatively impacted but as long as the entire herd throughout the region (macro) are not negatively impacted then great. This plays into the source/sink dynamic. Most states will manage to carry a herd above carrying capacity (k) just in case of unforeseen mortality (ie winter, predators, etc). This can allow for no change in quota for hunting licenses, unless the herd is negatively impacted in a severe way or hit multiple years.
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Macro management only works well when you have good access to most of the unit.
 
After the winter of 2010-2011 I was told by Ensign at the miles city office that the FWP isn’t in to knee jerk reactions. That’s why they are slow to adjust tag numbers. I doubt they move much next year.
 
timmy said:
After the winter of 2010-2011 I was told by Ensign at the miles city office that the FWP isn’t in to knee jerk reactions. That’s why they are slow to adjust tag numbers. I doubt they move much next year.
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Knee jerk reactions?

When a large portion of deer and antelope bite the dust...would you consider lowering quotas a knee jerk reaction?

I call that something different, proactive management comes to mind.

Montana practices reactive management...about 3 years too late with all decisions.
 
Yeah I had the same opinion. This was the last public comment I have went to or will go to.
 
teamhoyt said:
Glendive didn't get much for snow this winter, if we don't see some spring rains we will be in a world of hurt this summer. Prolonged cold temps was more of our issue.

As for your comment tjones on applying for tags that don't exist, don't see it ever happening. Our fwp does not manage proactively except as it applies to shooting everything that moves so we don't have food and security cover issues for the next winter.

You can bet that if the winter kill numbers are lower than expected this year those 10000 antelope tags and 8500 muley doe tags will be considered the reason why.

Animals here survive in spite of the fwp, not because of them, imo.
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Being in Glendive myself I agree although I thought the 16/17 winter was worse for our region snow and prolonged cold. Maybe its because I worked outside more that winter.
 
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