Decline In Hunters Threatens How U.S. Pays For Conservation (NPR)

wllm1313 said:

The NPR article gets its numbers from the US FWS Annual survey which bases it's numbers on extrapolations from census data.
https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/nationalsurvey/nat_survey2016.pdf

The data you are referencing is ostensibly raw data from the state license sales
https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/licenseinfo/hunting.htm

The later would appear to be more accurate, but I'm not sure if they control for people who have licenses in multiple states. I bet most guys on here have at least 2, I think I had 5 last year. It's possible they use Socials to eliminate duplicates, I know CO, WY, MT, and UT asked for mine but I don't think I had to give that info for my Kansas and Alaska tags. Either way both datasets are being curated by the US FWS, so if they say based on their finding that hunter numbers are going down I'm going to believe them and assume there are some data busts that aren't readily apparent.

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It says in the footnotes that it doesn't attempt to remove duplicate people who buy more than one license, but it does have a column for nonresident sales. That column is inflated though, because it is counting all permits, stamps, etc. sold to that nonresident hunter. Looking at the resident numbers the column with total tags, permits, stamps, etc. is about double the number of licensed hunters. I wouldn't think nonresidents would buy quite as many individual permits as a resident though. Most are probably going to hunt one species in that nonresident state, but there are for sure some who would buy multiple tags or permits.

I would say that most folks on here are anomaly on the number of licenses and tags we buy.

neffa3 said:

Our local rod and gun club assist WDFW put on a Youth hunting and fishing day in Wenatchee two years ago. We got maybe 70 kids. Last year we took the reins, spent way more on advertising, and solicited better prizes. Managed to pull in over 250 kids. We're hoping this year to be up to 300-400. We're making considerable in-roads and MANY of the kids had never been exposed to hunting at any level. Many of the parents and grandparents also seemed to be energized about it. I think this type of program is something we should all volunteer for.

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Neffa3,
Nicely done! If you would like to discuss the model we are using shoot me a PM and I would be very happy to share our planning. There might be a nugget you can use. We had 542 kids our 1st year, 1192 our second year, 1896 our 3rd year and 2180 last year.

Dinkshooter said:

Oh my all this sounds horrible, you mean my kid might actually have a chance at drawing a sheep or moose tag because of less hunters? Terrible I tell you, terrible.

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Good luck. How is bear hunting with bait and dogs going this year in Colorado? Any luck with the trapline of leg hold traps and conibear traps? Colorado Intitative 10 in 1992 passed with almost 70% of votes cast. Would you say Colorado is more pro-hunting or less now compared to 25 years ago which was 1992. Do you think #10 passed because wildlife biologists thought it was a good idea to reduce hunting success on bears? Nope. Science was not a factor in getting the initiative on the ballot. Colorado Initiative 14 passed in 1996. Bye bye leg hold and conibear traps.

Oh, and Colorado has voted for the Dem candidate in higher numbers than the GOP candidate on each of the last 3 Presidential elections.

Are you so sure an initiative to ban moose, sheep and goat hunting would not pass in 2020 when a backlash of motivated voters are headed to the polls? Colorado will add the equivalent of another Denver by 2050. Care to guys how those new voters will lean on "trophy" hunting initiatives?

LopeHunter said:

Oh, and Colorado has voted for the Dem candidate in higher numbers than the GOP candidate on each of the last 3 Presidential elections.

Are you so sure an initiative to ban moose, sheep and goat hunting would not pass in 2020 when a backlash of motivated voters are headed to the polls? Colorado will add the equivalent of another Denver by 2050. Care to guys how those new voters will lean on "trophy" hunting initiatives?

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Probably not the way you want if you keep painting with such a broad brush. If we want to survive as hunters we need to build a big tent and check our non-relevant politics at the door, I don't care what someones stance is on immigration, abortion, or social security if they have a like mind interest in conservation and if conservation is the topic at hand.

Making someone with a Hillary sticker on their car feel unwelcome at a RMEF, DU, WTF event or at the local shooting range is about the worst thing you can do for the hunting community.

tjones said:

R or NR tags and licenses are the cheapest part of the hunt for the Sitka wearing, Kimber packing, F350 driving, MR using, Swarovski hauling, Kennetrk wearing modern hunter. Yet guys still gripe.

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It really doesn't matter in the end if they stop hunting and supporting the cost of wildlife. At some point listening to the gripes may be all you have left to save the funding. In the long run getting more money out of less hunters is a disaster waiting to happen. Less hunters is less voters and support.

wllm1313 said:

Probably not the way you want if you keep painting with such a broad brush. If we want to survive as hunters we need to build a big tent and check our non-relevant politics at the door, I don't care what someones stance is on immigration, abortion, or social security if they have a like mind interest in conservation and if conservation is the topic at hand.

Making someone with a Hillary sticker on their car feel unwelcome at a RMEF, DU, WTF event or at the local shooting range is about the worst thing you can do for the hunting community.

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Absolutely spot on!

If you want to save hunting and shooting, take a liberal to the hunting fields, the shooting range, and a match.

If you want to lose all of that, run them off.

wllm1313 said:

Making someone with a Hillary sticker on their car feel unwelcome at a RMEF, DU, WTF event or at the local shooting range is about the worst thing you can do for the hunting community.

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and maybe the internet...

Most of the actual hunters I know, those that get out of their trucks, likely picked the hill-dog over the orange man. Some are extremely liberal. But hunting should be something that unites us. It shouldn't be RvsD that divides us. So if you paint with a board brush do so wisely.

I have a few thoughts and I am curious what everyone thinks.

1. There are several barriers to entry that when combined contribute to the overall decrease in the percentage of the population that goes hunting. Access as Randy pointed out can be argued and viewed from many different angles but the main consensus is that people feel there is a lack of access. I think one contributing factor to access is the merging of farms, in turn fewer farmer’s. My family farms and it has doubled in size over the last 10 years, so places where people could hunt have changed hands and in some scenarios reduced the opportunity for certain people. We haven’t necessarily added the number of people with access but increased the amount of land the same group has access to. In general I feel as urbanization happens the general public has fewer personal connection to rural areas and landowners, which equates to people feeling like they have less access. Also fewer landowners equals fewer points of contact for access. This is why public land is so important and we have to fight to grow the public land as a portion of the population.

2. Another barrier to entry into hunting is the learning curve that can seem overwhelming. I think there is interest in hunting from people looking to get organic meat as well as people looking to do more outside but when they research into hunting they get overwhelmed. For people who grow up hunting like myself it can come easy but as we know it can also be overwhelming to apply in certain states for veteran hunters. Feels like you need a law degree to read regulations sometimes. Then there is learning how to use a weapon. Some of us were fortunate enough to have a Dad that taught us but I feel as though the percentage of people who have family members or close friends teaching them gun safety and related items is shrinking. One idea I have is to take some hard to draw tags that have higher populations and are considered “easier” hunts and have them set aside to only go to “first time hunters”. It would be once in a lifetime for residents of that state obviously but basically give a “first time hunter” an excellent experience to plant that seed and grow interest. Maybe include gun safety and other basic skills training earlier in the year as part of the tag. Seasoned hunters will have to be slightly selfless for the future of hunting IMO.

3. Regarding the funding of conservation and public lands, I think we can agree Pittman-Robertson was/is a big win. As hunter’s we could say we pull our weight like the article states but there is still a trend of funding being needed. My question is could we (Public Land Advocates) propose either a new bill similar to Pittman-Robertson that takes an excise tax on Recreational Gear or amend Pittman-Robertson to include an excise tax on more than guns and ammo. I feel like this user group would be willing to support conservation at a small expense. I have several friends who care about the environment and do a lot of hiking in the PNW but don’t necessarily contribute to the cause. This would also help dissuade the need for new exploration by industries like mining to help pay for public land. Some might argue that people don’t necessarily use their gear on public land but that’s the same with guns and ammo. The hard part will be determining what items are taxed. I’d be comfortable including items such as tents as that seems black and white. What other items could be added to the list? With companies like Patagonia showing general public land support (in certain ways) I think you could get a few major players to lead this effort. I realize it would be an uphill battle. This user group is a lot larger than the hunting population so joining forces would be good in my opinion.

neffa3 said:

Our local rod and gun club assist WDFW put on a Youth hunting and fishing day in Wenatchee two years ago. We got maybe 70 kids. Last year we took the reins, spent way more on advertising, and solicited better prizes. Managed to pull in over 250 kids. We're hoping this year to be up to 300-400. We're making considerable in-roads and MANY of the kids had never been exposed to hunting at any level. Many of the parents and grandparents also seemed to be energized about it. I think this type of program is something we should all volunteer for.

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That's what I'm talking about!! We have to be selfless if we want our values and traditions to reach people and continue on. I think kids deserve tags over adults all day. Those are key years in a life that impact who you are. I'd give up a tag every year if it meant a new kid became a hunter every year because I think I am a better person today because of the hunting experiences in my youth.

BrentD said:

Absolutely spot on!

If you want to save hunting and shooting, take a liberal to the hunting fields, the shooting range, and a match.

If you want to lose all of that, run them off.

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Hearing some sound opines from the newbies.

I applied to hunt in 6 states for years,10 yrs ago. Even hunted 3 one year.
My life allows me to enjoy the outdoors year round. My means these days allows for hunting & exploring in one.
Spent my $ on the best gear I could afford at the time & use more than once.
Never had a utv or a fancy hunt rig,never wanted one.
After working with the public in the public sector for many years I have become less likely to interact with said public.
That said I never pass on a chance to change a mind.
Foodie tech hiker to see hunting for the pure food it is.
Talk green decoy bs & inclusiveness with a avid rabid hunting group in the local cafe.
It's all good if I can convince more folks to support OUR National Heritage Of Public Lands.
Must admit getting the REI crowd to hug me is a tough one....

I went deer hunting for the first time last fall. I'd turned 33 by the time I filled my first deer tag here in Texas.

Access is a huge issue that can't be ignored, although that's not news to anyone here. I grew up around guns, I dove hunted off and on with family and friends, but I never really fell in love with hunting simply because I didn't have a reliable place to go when I was younger. When I was able to go dove/coyote/hog hunting, it was because someone with access had invited me to tag along.

This past year I had a new friend talk me back into dove hunting, and an old friend encourage me to try and fill a deer tag. I had plenty of excuses to just sit at home and let my tags expire, because it's not easy to find a place to hunt deer in Central Texas. Every hunter I know just sets up a stand on family-owned farm land, or pays thousands of dollars for a shared deer lease, many of which go sour after the land owner ignores the terms of the lease and hunts there himself, or lets family hunt there. I worked hard to put out the word that I was looking for places to hunt, I was respectful about it, and to be completely honest, I was just damn lucky in a sense that I had a couple of people come forward with offers to let me hunt their property. I went into the season simply wanting to fill one tag and put venison in the freezer, and I was blessed to end up with three deer harvested.

Listening/watching Randy and people like Mark Kenyon has already put me on the path that I intend to travel. I may have gotten into the big-game hunting game later in life, but I'm a firm believer in doing it myself, researching, asking a lot of questions, and learning the hard way. I take pride in the fact that I haven't paid for access to hunt private land, especially since hunting leases are such a big part of Texas deer hunting. This fall/winter I'll be hunting a couple of new properties that I was able to gain access to, along with hitting some public lands where possible, but Texas public-land hunting is a whole other story.

hank4elk said:

Hearing some sound opines from the newbies.

...
Must admit getting the REI crowd to hug me is a tough one....

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I'll give ya a hug! Been an REI member for 30+ years. They sell damn good stuff. And I have never had a problem telling a sales person on the floor of a store that I need a more earth-tone color 'cuz I need it for elking. They generally warm right up to something, anything, that isn't just looking for the fashion statement, outdoor look.

Mr steve,
The one thing I see in rookie grad student hunters and hunter wanttobes is this notion that they need to know or learn or be taught how before they can. I, and most of my peers, did not have parents that hunted. We grew up in suburbs, we had access at lake places (my folks had a cabin north of Ely MN in the Superior NF -so I was a VERY lucky bastard that way), but we didn't have mentors, instructors, or even Youtubes. We had a gun and we did it. And we started small. With rabbits and squirrels = and we did it alone. So we had to figure it out. the most instruction I ever go was Outdoor Life.

I do recall my mom (a former nurse) helping my dissect my first squirrel. That was fun, but she had no more idea about how to field dress it than I did. She just knew an intestine when she saw it. Anyway, now we see everyone wanting a workshop (e.g, Becoming and Outdoor Woman is a popular one), and instead of learning to kill and dress our game with squirrels and rabbits, the new hunter starts with whitetails at the ripe ol' age of 5 with Dad leaning over his elbow in a box blind. This is really different from my experience. I don't know if it matters, but no one learns by trial and error any more. It was me, as a 12 yr old that took my dad hunting for the first time in his life. We were clueless, but we had some fun. And we learned.

BrentD said:

Absolutely spot on!

If you want to save hunting and shooting, take a liberal to the hunting fields, the shooting range, and a match.

If you want to lose all of that, run them off.

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Great suggestion. An edit: Take a person to the hunting... If we want to recruit new blood, it will happen by connecting rather than fixing or converting. Lose the labels, you don't need them to understand others, in fact, labels get in the way.

yes, elkduds, you are absolutely correct.

LopeHunter said:

Good luck. How is bear hunting with bait and dogs going this year in Colorado? Any luck with the trapline of leg hold traps and conibear traps? Colorado Intitative 10 in 1992 passed with almost 70% of votes cast. Would you say Colorado is more pro-hunting or less now compared to 25 years ago which was 1992. Do you think #10 passed because wildlife biologists thought it was a good idea to reduce hunting success on bears? Nope. Science was not a factor in getting the initiative on the ballot. Colorado Initiative 14 passed in 1996. Bye bye leg hold and conibear traps.

Oh, and Colorado has voted for the Dem candidate in higher numbers than the GOP candidate on each of the last 3 Presidential elections.

Are you so sure an initiative to ban moose, sheep and goat hunting would not pass in 2020 when a backlash of motivated voters are headed to the polls? Colorado will add the equivalent of another Denver by 2050. Care to guys how those new voters will lean on "trophy" hunting initiatives?

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I've walked through an ISE Sportsmans Show, exponential growth of those hunttards will not help a thing.

Increased urbanization, restricted access to huntable areas, lack of free time, and the rise of Netflix, video games and all-consuming youth sports are all dropping hunter numbers, but the most-pressing challenge is one that Warnke and others can't do anything about.

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I think this quote is key. Urbanization restricts access to huntable areas beyond the public land/permission to hunt private land issue. It's simply harder to have time to hunt in a society that has less and less free time. I don't see this as a conservative/liberal issue at all. I would be curious how many on this forum started hunting as an adult. I fit the REI crowd as well and I'm an avid outdoor photographer. I would stick to that if I didn't have countless hours hunting as a kid.

I grew up in a rural area. I hunted behind my house before or after school if I had an hour or two free. My kids couldn't do that if they wanted to because we've lived in urban areas. I've had my kids fish but they aren't hooked, pardon the pun, because it wasn't a regular event. We need to recruit adult hunters but most will become hunters as kids. The learning curve is much steeper for an adult who didn't grow up hunting.

Another factor is the emphasis on big game. I think the first mention of squirrels was on page 3. I cut my teeth on squirrels and rabbits. I hunted whitetail but that wasn't as appealing even to me as a country boy. Whitetail hunting in the south meant sitting in a tree stand for hours, often cold and wet. That was not appealing. Squirrel hunting was spot and stalk with occasional sitting and watching (can't call it glassing because I didn't have binoculars). Rabbit hunting had dogs and lots of shooting. Neither required more than a game vest and a 20 gauge shot gun.

Even among hunters I sometimes get looks at mentioning eating squirrels. I grew up with an 8 per day limit and no chance of overhunting them. We would pass on gray squirrels to get the bigger fox squirrels.

The land access issue has gotten worse in rural areas as well. Hunting clubs existed when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's but weren't expensive because there were no trophy bucks. But, there was also a WWII generation that didn't mind folks hunting on their land as long as you were safe and courteous. As that generation died off, I watched their kids put up posted signs in my home area just to keep people out, not because it was leased or because they were hunting it.

Louisiana has Wildlife Management Areas that are leased from timber companies. Besides public land, we need to keep good relations with timber companies for such arrangements.

BrentD said:

I'll give ya a hug! Been an REI member for 30+ years. They sell damn good stuff. And I have never had a problem telling a sales person on the floor of a store that I need a more earth-tone color 'cuz I need it for elking. They generally warm right up to something, anything, that isn't just looking for the fashion statement, outdoor look.

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Thanks,but I was kinda thinking of the outdoorsey gals in yoga pants & fleece might...lol . Been a member for 30+ too. I find it interesting seeing their reaction when I say I am looking at a bag for elk hunting in the Gila or deer hunting in the Sangres.

LaSportsman said:

Another factor is the emphasis on big game. I think the first mention of squirrels was on page 3. I cut my teeth on squirrels and rabbits. I hunted whitetail but that wasn't as appealing even to me as a country boy. Whitetail hunting in the south meant sitting in a tree stand for hours, often cold and wet. That was not appealing. Squirrel hunting was spot and stalk with occasional sitting and watching (can't call it glassing because I didn't have binoculars). Rabbit hunting had dogs and lots of shooting. Neither required more than a game vest and a 20 gauge shot gun.

Even among hunters I sometimes get looks at mentioning eating squirrels. I grew up with an 8 per day limit and no chance of overhunting them. We would pass on gray squirrels to get the bigger fox squirrels.

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Hey I mentioned squirrels on page 1 I think. And what kind of trophy squirrel hunter won't shoot gray squirrels???
But yeah the fox squirrels are better eating.

BrentD said:

It is the ONLY exception to my rule. High school trap is a big thing here. But coming from, almost exclusively small, rural, conservative, towns and school systems. So even that is somewhat exclusionary. Beyond that, everything from the Public Address announcer at a local gunshow to the guys at the bar, the trap range, the shooting range, and sort of PF, DU, etc event, are all very much unwelcoming to even centrist, nevermind left leaners.

Walk around the parking lot at your local gun club in the fall when everyone is sighting in or whatever. How many Hillary stickers do you see? Yup.

Interestingly, I have a good half dozen to ten grad students roaming my office hallways that would like to hunt. Very few do and most do it on the sly. They don't want anyone to know who they are or where they come from. They don't hang out on internet forums and they don't hang out at shooting ranges.

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So why do those who do hunt hide it?

We both know it is because it would be used against them by staff and students with Hillary stickers on their cars. That whole idea cuts both ways.