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  1. #1

    Default Reasons for flyers?

    I was shooting some of my .308 reloads at 500 yards the other day, and I was getting 3-4 shots in a 4" in group, and then I would suddenly get a flyer that would stray 6-7 inches out of the group. I'd shoot 3-4 more shots in group and then get another flyer way out of the group.

    Although this could be me, I highly doubt I'm pulling shots this bad. If I was this bad of a shot I'd like to think I wouldn't be shooting any kind of group at this distance. Also, I know my powder charges are on the money.

    I'm using remington brass that has been reloaded several times.

    Could this be the gun? Inconsistencies in the brass/bullet? Just looking for some insight/advice. Has anyone had something similiar happen to them?

    Thanks in advance.
    The day I stop hunting is the day I stop breathing.

    You can't eat antlers!!!

  2. #2

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    Too many variables at that kind of distance, I would go back to basics and try at 100 yards, then check the normal stuff which can cause 'flyers'
    Cheers
    Richard
    That's what the actress said to the bishop

  3. #3

    Default

    Remember 1 MOA at 500 is 5". So if you're shooting 1.5" groups at 100, 7.5" is the equivalent at 500. A 2mph change in wind speed can easily equate for 0.5moa of drift. say 2mph vs 4mph.

    Most rifles do not allow a consistent cheek weld with todays optics and the height they are mounted at, unless you have an adjustable cheek piece on your rifle. How you mount the rifle could be the entire reason as well.

    Like others have said, lots of variables.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In the Sagebrush of Montana
    Posts
    2,671

    Default

    If this is a hunting rifle, I say drop back to a 3 round group and make sure those three shots aren't producing fliers. If the rifle is throwing a flier after 3 or 4 then you're overheating the barrel. At this point, I suggest you stop attempting to shoot 5 round groups and settle on 3 because you should only need 1 shot to the vitals of the animal and possible 1 or 2 more to anchor (following the Newberg method of elk hunting: shoot until the elk is down)

    If it's not the barrel getting hot then there are probably too many things going on. Very slight gust of wind, you flinching (or moving in any way), how you weigh your powder charge (volumetric, balance beam, electronic scale), is the brass new or fireformed, are the bullets weight sorted, minor variations in bullet seating.

  5. Default

    Is the flyer consistently the 4-5 shot in your group? If so it's probably barrel heat. Is the rifle bedded? Free floated? How many firings on brass? Is it annealed? Lots of variables when shooting longer ranges.

  6. #6

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback guys. You have given me some things to think about.

    I don't believe it's barrel heat. I was waiting 3-5 minutes between shots and checking the temp. of the barrel with my hand.

    In addition, I have a custom cheek piece on my rifle.
    The day I stop hunting is the day I stop breathing.

    You can't eat antlers!!!

  7. #7

    Default

    It doesn't take much to throw a shot 5-6 inches at that range. Could be a whole host of things. That said, if its pretty consistent, I'd also go w/ the barrel temp explanation. Could be just enough heat to through a shot that much in a 4 or 5 shot group. Can you tell which shot in the group is the flyer?
    Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly.

    Micah 6:8

  8. #8

    Default

    It's never really the first two shots that's the flyer. It seems to vary between the last three shots of the five shot group, usually being one of the last two shots. I think I just need to keep playing with it and get a larger sample size. It seems like from what's been said, I may need to let my barrel cool even more than I am currently between shots. Although it's not even warm to the touch I guess it may be making a difference still.

    On a side note, have you all ever culled brass out of a group that doesn't shoot well? This would obviously have to be over at least a few firings. You couldn't just cull brass from one or two firings.
    The day I stop hunting is the day I stop breathing.

    You can't eat antlers!!!

  9. #9

    Default

    I'm kind of anal and redundant about things but when working up a load or sighting in, give my barrel at least 10 minutes between groups. I usually take a .22 or another rifle to fart around with while the barrel cools.
    Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly.

    Micah 6:8

  10. #10

    Default

    Shoot ten shots at the same target with sufficient time between each shot to make sure the barrel doesn't over heat. Repeat with a second target. Now look at the 2 "scatters", does it really look like 2 out of 10 "fliers" on each target, or is it that 2 or 3 first shots create an initial illusion of smaller grouping than is actually statistically true?
    "Freedom is NOT Free"

  11. #11

    Default

    If I can get my first 2-3 shots to hit where I want I'd call it good to go. IF they can do it time and time again

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Seeley Lake, Mt
    Posts
    504

    Default

    It could also be the mirage from the barrel heat. It seems insignificant but it is another variable you have to deal with.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan O View Post
    It could also be the mirage from the barrel heat. It seems insignificant but it is another variable you have to deal with.
    I'm thinking this also.
    Have had this give me trouble in the past. A peice of card board placed on top of the barrel and tucked just under the front of the scope fixes that.
    Inconsistent brass volume (wall thickness), could be part of the problem too. But my money is on the mirage.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingsGuy View Post
    Shoot ten shots at the same target with sufficient time between each shot to make sure the barrel doesn't over heat. Repeat with a second target. Now look at the 2 "scatters", does it really look like 2 out of 10 "fliers" on each target, or is it that 2 or 3 first shots create an initial illusion of smaller grouping than is actually statistically true?
    This deflates alot of ego's and bragging on rifles.

  15. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VikingsGuy View Post
    Shoot ten shots at the same target with sufficient time between each shot to make sure the barrel doesn't over heat. Repeat with a second target. Now look at the 2 "scatters", does it really look like 2 out of 10 "fliers" on each target, or is it that 2 or 3 first shots create an initial illusion of smaller grouping than is actually statistically true?
    I also agree with this. Once I started taking this advice, it becomes impossible to cherry pick your "best group" of the day and talk yourself into false confidence in your gear and yourself. That said, if I was shooting 4/5 at sub MOA at 500 yards, I'd probably be perfectly
    happy with the setup.

  16. #16

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    Reviving an old thread, but I think this may help some... When I was big into shooting groups, I quickly figured out to weigh my resized, primerless, and trimmed brass and separate them into groups. It may be anal if you're just hunting, but it helped me show up my buddies on the range! Like Millsworks said, brass has different volumes/thickness so the same charge in two different internal dimension cases may be off a bit with velocities.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in Montana View Post
    I'm kind of anal and redundant about things but when working up a load or sighting in, give my barrel at least 10 minutes between groups. I usually take a .22 or another rifle to fart around with while the barrel cools.
    While I believe in not letting a barrel get too hot, it would seem that a truly free floating barrel with NO pressure points affecting it should not produce flyers like that. If there is a pressure point, then one should expect to see the POI move in one direction as the barrel gets warmer.

  18. Default

    I would suspect myself. It probably is something your doing.

  19. #19

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    I recently read this one from Petzal. He's had a few good blog posts out on the Field and Stream website that I think could possibly be a culprit here.

    https://www.fieldandstream.com/how-b...ccuracy#page-2

    You may find value in marking the brass that is causing the flyers and either see if they cause flyers several times in a row, or toss them altogether.

    Additionally, you get this small tidbit:

    "Some handloaders like to dive in the brass box, thinking that they’re saving money and coming up with treasures. I would sooner practice random fornication at a leper colony."
    Last edited by OhHeyThereBen; 08-23-2018 at 01:31 PM.
    Squirrel!!!

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