SE Montana winter kill

406LIFE · Mar 2, 2018

Hunting Wife said:
Saw this in my inbox and thought some folks here might be interested. Here’s a brief article about a new publication regarding antelope mortality following hard winters. I was surprised to learn doe mortality is so high the following summer, though I suppose the logic makes sense. I can’t help but wonder if Eastern Montana will see something similar after a double whammy of extreme drought and the hard winter.

http://wildlife.org/jwm-winter-conditions-stress-pronghorn-the-next-summer/

I hope spring gets here soon.

The original article said declines were due to hunting. I messaged the author for a citation of this "fact". No reply. Article was changed.

antlerradar · Mar 3, 2018

bstrasheim55 said:
Do you guys oppose the taking of does? I do think taking multiple does may be excessive, but IMO I'd rather see a doe taken than a 1YO fork horned buck. I've driven by many "oofta" camps with dead forkies hanging in a tree and I always ask myself why not just shoot a doe?

I am not totally against doe tags. The problem with the 11000 is that there is no attempt to insure that the tags are filled where does need to be harvested the most.
I also feel that the tags have hurt the quality of bucks.

8andcounting · Mar 3, 2018

antlerradar said:
I am not totally against doe tags. The problem with the 11000 is that there is no attempt to insure that the tags are filled where does need to be harvested the most.
I also feel that the tags have hurt the quality of bucks.

What tags have hurt the quality of bucks and in what way ? Not saying I disagree , I'll probably agree just want you to explain a little thanks

Hunting Wife · Mar 3, 2018

406LIFE said:
The original article said declines were due to hunting. I messaged the author for a citation of this "fact". No reply. Article was changed.

Interesting...didn’t catch that. Thanks for posting.

antlerradar · Mar 4, 2018

8andcounting said:
What tags have hurt the quality of bucks and in what way ? Not saying I disagree , I'll probably agree just want you to explain a little thanks

Kind of a tangent from the topic.
I will attempt to explain my reasoning . Doe tags can eliminate the fill the freezer pressure and this allows us to be more selective with our A tag. You would think that this would help to grow better bucks but it doesn't. Forced selectivity (antler point restrictions) result in few quality bucks and voluntary selectivity will too.
On another thread a poster reported that in the absence of doe tags the meat lockers filled up with young 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old forks and three points. One might view this as a bad thing. I do not. This is why.
Most of those two and three points will never be a quality buck even if they were to live to five or six years old. Here in SE MT the average buck will have the potential to grow a set of antlers of around 165 inches at age six. Antler potential certainly forms a standard bell curve. This means that for every buck that will break 180 there is another buck that will never make 150. It is a safe bet that half of the 1 1/2 year old freezer bucks will fall on the small side of the bell curve and half will fall on the big side. I would bet that if you look at the 2 1/2 year old forks and three points that the majority of those bucks will fall on the small side of the bell curve. Many of bucks with high potential will have 4 points at age 2 1/2. The more selective we are the more we shift the harvest from the younger two and three points to 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 year old four points. These are the bucks that are more likely to be on the big side of the bell curve. Bucks that if they live to 5 or 6 will be larger bucks. It is difficult to grow big deer if we focus pressure on these bucks when they are younger.
If you want to grow big deer you are much better off if the meat hunter shoots a small two or three point than if he holds off and shoots a 24 inch three year old. Not many hunters are passing on a 24 inch four point today and bucks that fall in the extreme top end of the bell curve are often much better than a 24 inch four point at the age of three.
It is more likely than not that the small buck does not have the potential to become a big deer and even if he does he is still has 4 or 5 years to go to get there. Four or five year of predators and old man winter he needs to survive. There is a much greater chance that the 24 inch buck has the potential to grow big and he is only 2 or three years away.

For an individual it is nice to fill the freezer with a few does and hunt for a nice buck the rest of the season instead of shoot a meat buck and watching football the rest of the season. This opportunity however increases hunting pressure. As hunters we tend to try to avoid other people. The more pressure the more we get in to those out of the way places where a buck might have a chance to live to five or six years of age. The more pressure the more likely it is that the does and bucks will be pushed from public to a safe place on private.

antlerradar · Mar 4, 2018

I see in the paper that 17 antelope were killed by the train near Moon Creek. Not good. Brings back memories what happened to the antelope during the winter of 2011.

8andcounting · Mar 4, 2018

antlerradar said:
Kind of a tangent from the topic.
I will attempt to explain my reasoning . Doe tags can eliminate the fill the freezer pressure and this allows us to be more selective with our A tag. You would think that this would help to grow better bucks but it doesn't. Forced selectivity (antler point restrictions) result in few quality bucks and voluntary selectivity will too.
On another thread a poster reported that in the absence of doe tags the meat lockers filled up with young 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old forks and three points. One might view this as a bad thing. I do not. This is why.
Most of those two and three points will never be a quality buck even if they were to live to five or six years old. Here in SE MT the average buck will have the potential to grow a set of antlers of around 165 inches at age six. Antler potential certainly forms a standard bell curve. This means that for every buck that will break 180 there is another buck that will never make 150. It is a safe bet that half of the 1 1/2 year old freezer bucks will fall on the small side of the bell curve and half will fall on the big side. I would bet that if you look at the 2 1/2 year old forks and three points that the majority of those bucks will fall on the small side of the bell curve. Many of bucks with high potential will have 4 points at age 2 1/2. The more selective we are the more we shift the harvest from the younger two and three points to 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 year old four points. These are the bucks that are more likely to be on the big side of the bell curve. Bucks that if they live to 5 or 6 will be larger bucks. It is difficult to grow big deer if we focus pressure on these bucks when they are younger.
If you want to grow big deer you are much better off if the meat hunter shoots a small two or three point than if he holds off and shoots a 24 inch three year old. Not many hunters are passing on a 24 inch four point today and bucks that fall in the extreme top end of the bell curve are often much better than a 24 inch four point at the age of three.
It is more likely than not that the small buck does not have the potential to become a big deer and even if he does he is still has 4 or 5 years to go to get there. Four or five year of predators and old man winter he needs to survive. There is a much greater chance that the 24 inch buck has the potential to grow big and he is only 2 or three years away.

For an individual it is nice to fill the freezer with a few does and hunt for a nice buck the rest of the season instead of shoot a meat buck and watching football the rest of the season. This opportunity however increases hunting pressure. As hunters we tend to try to avoid other people. The more pressure the more we get in to those out of the way places where a buck might have a chance to live to five or six years of age. The more pressure the more likely it is that the does and bucks will be pushed from public to a safe place on private.

Ok thanks . I appreciate your time and response

SteveE · Mar 4, 2018

antlerradar said:
I see in the paper that 17 antelope were killed by the train near Moon Creek. Not good. Brings back memories what happened to the antelope during the winter of 2011.

Exactly what came to my mind. We had elk get wiped out by a train the last time this happened.

Good explanation above. Wyoming distinguishes between private land / public land harvest. We need private land doe tags.

Doe tags are great where carrying capacity is an issue. We have zero problem with that on MT public land
The feed is there, it just becomes unaccessable buried under feet of rock hard snow.

Not just SE this year. East Glacier has 245 inches. That is 20.4 FEET. February produced 78 inches in one month. I wonder if anything will make it this year. Snowing hard as I type this.

mn taxidermist · Mar 22, 2018

Any updates on the deer?

Songdog3060 · Mar 22, 2018

MTGomer said:
Nobody really thinks opportunity will be cut. Caravans of ooftas can still come collect their 6 roadside rutters.

Your opportunity will always come before conservation and that won’t change anytime soon.

OK,OK...........OK (smiling politely) I'll take the bait......!

What the heck is an "OOFTA"

Laughing now. how about Out OF Town A-hole?

Please help me to avoid being an OOFTA. Wow

The Hedgehog · Mar 22, 2018

Oofta or “uff-da” is Norwegian slang. Usually heard from NE MT, the dakotas, and Minnesota- where so many of the SE MT dink deer stacking road hunters come from.

Going to be a tough summer renourishing for these deer that survive, only to get the same ol same old this fall.

Uffda is right

antlerradar · Mar 22, 2018

mn taxidermist said:
Any updates on the deer?

I have found several dead deer and many of the deer will not leave the haystacks. They just walk to the other end when you open the gate to get a bale. I can only compare this year to 78-79 and that year did not end well for the deer.

EYJONAS! · Mar 22, 2018

I've said it before and I'll say it again......Better take a year or two off from Eastern Montana. I'm sure that'll happen.

oldschool.06 · Mar 22, 2018

Really bummed to hear how hard the wildlife has it this winter . Im a new hunter and Im just starting to understand the area in SE Montana . I put in for tags again this year hopefully I get drawn and we can come hunt it again . I did some hiking there 2 years ago and again last year and I saw a lot of nice bucks . (off the road of course ) Me being new I scared a few off and didnt shoot when I should have but I have gotten a nice 3x3 with eye pokers out of there . Within my group we have gotten about 6 good bucks in the last 2 trips out there . Most of theirs better then mine I guess I have to earn it. Except my friend that shot a 1 sided 4 pointer . He couldn't see the other rack from his vantage point ( neither could I) when I got to the Buck I laughed my rear end off . lol I hope the weather doesn't kill off too many animals I hate to see the wildlife suffer like that .

schmalts · Mar 22, 2018

It really sucks to watch the weather and keep seeing snow pile up and no 60's or higher days to melt off hill sides. This is worst than the last time a winter kill happened, and it was night and day difference on how the hunt went. The last time I hunted after a winter like this in the SE I saw 2 deer by noon after walking all morning. The year before I saw 12 bucks by noon. Oh well, it was a good run for a few years, mother nature is a bitch.

CampRipleyLF · Mar 22, 2018

Wonder what the non-resident application numbers will be this year. Assuming a fair amount less than last year.....

The Hedgehog · Mar 22, 2018

Not a chance. They’ll come in swarms to happily kill the remaining forked horns and does.

EYJONAS! · Mar 22, 2018

greenhorn said:
not a chance. They’ll come in swarms to happily kill the remaining forked horns and does.

bingo....ding ding ding

EYJONAS! · Mar 22, 2018

CampRipleyLF said:
Wonder what the non-resident application numbers will be this year. Assuming a fair amount less than last year.....

Stated before, fwp isn't releasing any intel until they sell their tags. I talked to a guy today that has a little property down there and they're finding dead deer left and right. Let alone antelope. But come on out there's plenty to go around.

timmy · Mar 22, 2018

There will be a substantial winter kill. I doubt you will see less hunters but I can guarantee you will see less deer.

SE Montana winter kill

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