Really Dirty...

Dougfirtree

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Some might remember that I bought a TC Venture Compact, in .308 for my kids to use. I've had it to the range twice now and I have some good news and some bad news (maybe). The question relates to the bad news.

First the good: I used some factory Federal Fusion 150's to break in the barrel. Along the way, I shot a couple of groups, the best of which was 5/8"! So, the rifle is certainly capable of shooting well.

Now the bad: I've been working up a reduced recoil load for it, using 150 grain Speer BTSP's and H4895. I'm still in the process, but it seems like I'll be able to get a sufficiently accurate load around 23-2400fps. The problem is that there seems to be a lot of powder residue getting into the chamber. The cases come out really dirty and the extraction feels a tad rough. The bolt face is getting very, very dirty too. There's absolutely no sign of residue coming out around the primers, it seems to be coming from the case neck and working its way back. There also aren't any pressure signs. I've never run into this before, so my questions are:

1. Should I be concerned about safety?

2. Any other negatives about this, other than more cleaning? Should I consider contacting TC?

3. If the chamber is "loose" (in relation to my resizing die), can I just resize the necks from now on, since the body of the cases should be perfectly expanded to the rifle's chamber?

Thanks!
 
Are you below minimum load? What is happening is there's not enough pressure to swell the case and seal the chamber.
 
I agree with p_ham. If your below starting load recommendations it could cause other issues as well. Some pistols have been blown up when less than the recommended powder charges are used. It can sometimes cause it to detonate instead of burn properly. If your load is in the normal range then maybe anneal your cases and see if that helps.

Good luck
Dan
 
Interesting. I'm below the "normal" published start loads, but I'm well within the 60% rule that they use for H4895 and reduced loads. I've done light loads like this before, in my other rifle and not had this trouble. Still, it does seem like you're probably right. It makes sense. I'll bring it up a bit and see where the problem stops. Thanks!
 
Kind of scary that you are reloading for your kids. Harsh, yep, but good grief.

Either go to a heavier bullet or use the appropriate powder. Using the proper power can even get you to subsonic levels if you so desire.
 
Kind of scary that you are reloading for your kids. Harsh, yep, but good grief.

Either go to a heavier bullet or use the appropriate powder. Using the proper power can even get you to subsonic levels if you so desire.

Well, I'm certainly not going to let them shoot these loads if I can't figure this out. While some of the loads I tried were clearly too light for the cases, I'm well within published limits from Hodgdon: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads. If I get the pressure up to where this isn't happening, I would think I'd be in one of the safer zones of reloading (using a powder with such an incredibly wide range of safe charges). Still, it's something to think about. I'd be curious to hear others' opinions on reloading for kids. It's funny, I've been pretty conservative with my reloading and the only pressure signs I've ever witnessed were from factory cartridges...
 
Well, I'm certainly not going to let them shoot these loads if I can't figure this out. While some of the loads I tried were clearly too light for the cases, I'm well within published limits from Hodgdon: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/low-recoil-loads. If I get the pressure up to where this isn't happening, I would think I'd be in one of the safer zones of reloading (using a powder with such an incredibly wide range of safe charges). Still, it's something to think about. I'd be curious to hear others' opinions on reloading for kids. It's funny, I've been pretty conservative with my reloading and the only pressure signs I've ever witnessed were from factory cartridges...

I am new to reloading this year, when I load a cartridge with in published limits (as OP seems to be doing), and thoroughly test & inspect (as OP seems to be doing) to catch things like over pressure signs, or under pressure signs, or cracked case, etc., then, yes, I let my son shoot them. But just like OP, if a load doesn't prove out, then neither my son or myself will be shooting it.
 
I called the folks at Hodgdon this morning to ask about their take. The guy I spoke with said that yes, you're clearly not getting enough pressure to expand the case and that's not at all unheard of when doing reduced loads. He said as long as I'm operating within that 60% rule, I should be very safe, just dirty, until I find the charge that expands the case more, or until I crimp.
Still, Fair Chase's comment has me thinking. I'm going to ponder some more about whether the world wouldn't be a happier place if I just bought them some factory reduced recoil loads...
 
What about a starting load? If it shoots 5/8" at reduced I can't imagine it would open up much more at a starting charge and I doubt felt recoil would be any different

IT was the full strength Federal load that went 5/8". The reduced recoil loads haven't been that good yet, but they haven't been bad. Starting load for H4895 is still pretty hot for the kids (up around 2700 as I recall). But, perhaps a starting load in another powder is an option; something that produces slower velocities.
 
I can't remember from previous threads but have the kids shot the rifle? Is the recoil too much? One option would be to drop down to a lighter bullet. Even though the bullet is moving faster the perceived recoil might be less.

Maybe consider a cast bullet and load...the goal is to usually keep the loads at or below 2300fps so that might be a good option too.
 
But, perhaps a starting load in another powder is an option

We all know lighter bullet, heavier gun and slower bullet all reduce actual recoil. We also know that proper LOP and cheek fit, and quality recoil pads reduce perceived recoil. But I didn't appreciate the effect of powder load on recoil separate from its obvious effect on velocity until I started reloading this year. When looking at powder choices, grains of powder used also effects recoil. Most of the mass of the powder exits the barrel too and a good portion of it does so at a much higher velocity than the bullet. For example, I was working up a .308 load and one powder needed 43.3 grn to give essentially the same bullet MV as 49.9 grn of a different powder -- Recoil calculations show that this change alone increased calculated recoil by +11%.

Tweaking a number of the recoil drivers (perceived and actual) in addition to the cartridge load may get your kid to a good place.
 
I called the folks at Hodgdon this morning to ask about their take. The guy I spoke with said that yes, you're clearly not getting enough pressure to expand the case and that's not at all unheard of when doing reduced loads. He said as long as I'm operating within that 60% rule, I should be very safe, just dirty, until I find the charge that expands the case more, or until I crimp.
Still, Fair Chase's comment has me thinking. I'm going to ponder some more about whether the world wouldn't be a happier place if I just bought them some factory reduced recoil loads...

If you want a safe slow load look at trail boss, H322 & Benchmark. They are low pressure loads compared to the other options.
 
I would do as suggested. Buy a box of reduced recoil loads. Let the kids shoot it and see how they react and what they say about the recoil. If it's manageable then load up some reduced charge loads and tune them til they expand the cases to seal and shoot good.
If nothing else buy them a 243 and keep the 308 for when they get older.
 
Try Sierra Pro hunters or Hornady SSts. There cheap forreloading and practice, but will do the job for closer range deer round. Can get alot of different loads down to 2500 range in each of their data manuals.
 
When did kids get so soft? Lol. Heck, my first rifle was a Winchester M70 Ranger in 270 Win shooting 150 grain factory Remington/Winchester loads.
 
Beyond more powder try crimping it! Need better pressure, best just to load hotter but have seen crimps help
 

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