School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

Firedude said:

It's a multiple tier problem that's going to take a multiple tier approach. Mental health, school access and security, warning signs, media attention, etc. The big debate now is arming staff. That's the only one I have and idea on so I"ll throw it out there. As far as that goes I get it if a teacher doesn't want to be responsible for a gun in their classroom. I can see the hazard potential there. I wouldn't tell one no if they wanted to, but let's be honest I can see why they may not want to. But why not give them other options? Like a Bean Bag gun, pepper spray, or Taser? It sounds crazy against a gun but hear me out. I was a reserve deputy for a while. I took a Taser ride. I can only describe it as 100 devils riverdancing on your body in high heels. It hurts, you can't move, you can't do anything but want to pee your pants but you don't have a choice to or not because you don't even have the muscular control. Wet or dry pants is no guarantee. In the event a school goes into lockdown the teacher grabs their implement after locking the door. They arm it. Point the laser beam and flashlight on taser at the door and if anyone gets through without the Codeword they ride the lighting. If they had a gun in their hands they ride until the batteries go dead giving someone a chance to subdue them. But in the event someone get ahold of it on any given day the odds of a fatal accident are GREATLY decreased vs a gun however in the event that the horrid event happens they aren't empty handed. I'm not saying this to fuel the fire but just throw an idea out. What do you think?

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Finally,some discussion on defensive ideals.
Here's one from page 10 of this thread:

Ok, ,here a solution to protect schools and other buildings. a friend who does security put me on to this. He toured this facility liked what he saw. It's non lethal, so it can be deployed if it even looks like trouble and no one is permanently harmed

Maybe not perfect but a good first step:
"A remotely deployed threat suppression system that drenches the perp with a repulsive solution, impairing their ability to enact violence"

http://www.crotega.com/#glimpse-of-sentre

Or just google Crotega


It will at least turn the discussion towards safety and maybe not as much towards guns

Best of all, it alleviates the discussion/debate of whether to arm someone in a school

Ugh at least 3 deputies waited outside while the shooting was taking place:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...ol-shooting-response-fail-20180223-story.html

So now we may have up to 3 trained LEO who did not go in to stop the shooter for whatever reason they had. Perhaps they knew they were out-gunned. I'm sure the geography teach with a pistol will not freeze up at the crucial moment, right?

Gr8bawana said:

So now we may have up to 3 trained LEO who did not go in to stop the shooter for whatever reason they had. Perhaps they knew they were out-gunned. I'm sure the geography teach with a pistol will not freeze up at the crucial moment, right?

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If we have up to three trained LEO officers that didn't engage the shooter, we have three LEO officers that failed their training, and everyone that lost their lives that day. If the officers were there, why would a teacher need a damn gun in the first place? Outgunned or not, the officers failed. Don't know if a firearm in the hands of a teacher would have made a difference or not. But, from the reports, the teachers in that school that were unarmed, had more courage than the guys with guns. mtmuley

airlocksniffer said:

Ugh at least 3 deputies waited outside while the shooting was taking place:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...ol-shooting-response-fail-20180223-story.html

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It is unfortunate, if that is the case. Coral Springs responding Officer reported this and it is being looked into.

Good on the Coral Springs Officers and the Broward Sheriff Deputies that did enter as they arrived.

Jezus BHR, I figured with nearly 650 posts without a personal attack you might have something worthwhile to say so I unblocked your post. I guess I'll check back in a few more months...

As far as the content of my comments, the majority of Americans think the "guns are inanimate objects so they shouldn't be regulated" argument is inane. Sorry, get over it, and don't kill the messenger. I mean, after the 9/11 attacks nobody blamed box cutters, but we sure as hell knew we could no longer treat them like butter knives. People look at these semi-auto weapons with big detachable magazines and wonder what the hell do we really need those for. Is the benefit worth the cost? And the gun lovers respond with stuff like guns don't kill people, people do. Libtard. Well, they aren't even part of the discussion of the changes in the works. Maybe it won't happen in this decade, but this situation with these semi-automatic weapons is not sustainable. Even hunters are gun owners are fed up with it. A couple more school shootings and the game will be over.

mtmuley said:

If we have up to three trained LEO officers that didn't engage the shooter, we have three LEO officers that failed their training, and everyone that lost their lives that day. If the officers were there, why would a teacher need a damn gun in the first place? Outgunned or not, the officers failed. Don't know if a firearm in the hands of a teacher would have made a difference or not. But, from the reports, the teachers in that school that were unarmed, had more courage than the guys with guns. mtmuley

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I don't like to judge things like this without being in their shoes, but Jesus, it just makes you sick. With so many of them doing it you have to wonder how they were trained.

RobG said:

I don't like to judge things like this without being in their shoes, but Jesus, it just makes you sick. With so many of them doing it you have to wonder how they were trained.

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I don't want to judge this either Rob. More info may come out. I think my shoes would have entered the building. mtmuley

Gr8bawana said:

So now we may have up to 3 trained LEO who did not go in to stop the shooter for whatever reason they had. Perhaps they knew they were out-gunned. I'm sure the geography teach with a pistol will not freeze up at the crucial moment, right?

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Because they were/are cowards. They failed to protect those students and adults. Waiting outside and setting up a perimeter hasn’t been the correct response since about 24hrs after Columbine. There is no excuse for their inaction.

If anything I would say this shows the need for persons to carry because the cowards of Broward County might not be there to save you.
Hats off to the Coral Springs officers and BSO deputy’s that did make entry.
The other 4 have disgraced themselves, I won’t say what I think they should do.

Truth.

Gut Shot said:

Don't forget, the FBI was warned about this person multiple times and failed to do anything about it. The local police knew this guy was a problem and failed to do anything about it. The officers who responded sat around outside the school while children were being killed and failed to do anything about it.

The government screwed this up three days from Sunday. It's sad that people think the government restricting our rights will work to stop these things. The government could screw up a two car parade, I don't trust them not to screw up, in the future, on issues like this.

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The shooter bought his firearm legally, how did the Government fail? Which of the shooters constitutional rights should the FBI and local Sheriff stomped on prior to his shooting up the school?

See, this is the trouble I have with people like you. You want the Government to stay out of YOUR second amendment rights, but then want the big-bad G to step on someone else's rights before they even do anything wrong.

I could report you to the FBI for being a wingnut and unhinged. Doesn't mean you are, but should that give the G the right to deny you a firearm? What about your other constitutional rights, should those be violated to make sure you really aren't a wingnut and unhinged?

Bottom line to all this, nobody is going to do anything. The NRA is going to continue to beat their slippery slope, everyone needs an assault rifle, drum. Teachers aren't going to be required to pack heat. Nobody is going to pay another red cent to safeguard schools. Nobody is going to recommend their taxes go up to safeguard schools. There wont be much done with mental health either. The can will continue to be kicked down the road, like it always has.

Its just the way it is in the land of the Free. The cost that is paid, from time to time for living in a free society, is a bunch of innocent people die. Been going on for years and its not going to change, no matter how much anybody wants it to. It happens over and over and over again...sucks, but that's just the reality.

There's just some people that are batshit crazy, but they still have constitutional rights up to and until they start whacking innocent people with a firearm...even then they have constitutionally guaranteed rights to due process.

Something we have to live with, get over it, and just hope its not your turn to pay the price next.

About all that can be done...

Buzz, that's about the way I think it should play out, but I don't think it will -not this time. I think some dollars will get spent, but not on mentally ill. I think some rights will be trampled on as well.

RobG said:

Jezus BHR, I figured with nearly 650 posts without a personal attack you might have something worthwhile to say so I unblocked your post. I guess I'll check back in a few more months...

As far as the content of my comments, the majority of Americans think the "guns are inanimate objects so they shouldn't be regulated" argument is inane. Sorry, get over it, and don't kill the messenger. I mean, after the 9/11 attacks nobody blamed box cutters, but we sure as hell knew we could no longer treat them like butter knives. People look at these semi-auto weapons with big detachable magazines and wonder what the hell do we really need those for. Is the benefit worth the cost? And the gun lovers respond with stuff like guns don't kill people, people do. Libtard. Well, they aren't even part of the discussion of the changes in the works. Maybe it won't happen in this decade, but this situation with these semi-automatic weapons is not sustainable. Even hunters are gun owners are fed up with it. A couple more school shootings and the game will be over.

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I'm pro first amendment too. Keep talking Rob. Keep talking.

BuzzH said:

The shooter bought his firearm legally, how did the Government fail? Which of the shooters constitutional rights should the FBI and local Sheriff stomped on prior to his shooting up the school?

See, this is the trouble I have with people like you. You want the Government to stay out of YOUR second amendment rights, but then want the big-bad G to step on someone else's rights before they even do anything wrong.

I could report you to the FBI for being a wingnut and unhinged. Doesn't mean you are, but should that give the G the right to deny you a firearm? What about your other constitutional rights, should those be violated to make sure you really aren't a wingnut and unhinged?

Bottom line to all this, nobody is going to do anything. The NRA is going to continue to beat their slippery slope, everyone needs an assault rifle, drum. Teachers aren't going to be required to pack heat. Nobody is going to pay another red cent to safeguard schools. Nobody is going to recommend their taxes go up to safeguard schools. There wont be much done with mental health either. The can will continue to be kicked down the road, like it always has.

Its just the way it is in the land of the Free. The cost that is paid, from time to time for living in a free society, is a bunch of innocent people die. Been going on for years and its not going to change, no matter how much anybody wants it to. It happens over and over and over again...sucks, but that's just the reality.

There's just some people that are batshit crazy, but they still have constitutional rights up to and until they start whacking innocent people with a firearm...even then they have constitutionally guaranteed rights to due process.

Something we have to live with, get over it, and just hope its not your turn to pay the price next.

About all that can be done...

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Not disputing most of this and unfortunately I think you will be proven right. However, with the threats he had made, he could have been taken into custody and forced to have a mental evaluation, per law in Florida. I'm not sure but as I understand it, his weapons could have been seized in the process but I'm not sure of that one.

I'm mostly with Buzz about the potential greater loss of rights when ones guns can be taken away based on someone's accusations, but MT has addressed some of the verifiable threats inspired by the shooting, charging at least one with a felony. On the other hand, this is the likely endpoint of this type of action, a person removed from class after posting a video holding a pistol.

BuzzH said:

The shooter bought his firearm legally, how did the Government fail? Which of the shooters constitutional rights should the FBI and local Sheriff stomped on prior to his shooting up the school?

See, this is the trouble I have with people like you. You want the Government to stay out of YOUR second amendment rights, but then want the big-bad G to step on someone else's rights before they even do anything wrong.

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I think you misunderstand me on this Buzz. The shooter did buy his gun legally. Where the government dropped the ball is in the 39 times they were called because of trouble with the shooter. the reports I'm hearing state that some of these were assault/domestic violence calls. If he were actually arrested and convicted on just one of these calls the NICS check should have caught him and prevented him from legally getting any gun.

And you can call the FBI on me if you would like. A simple computer check by them will show that I have no history of violence or mental instability. If law enforcement had a record of the 39 times they contacted the killer it should have thrown up a red flag on the FBI's computer.

RobG said:

I'm mostly with Buzz about the potential greater loss of rights when ones guns can be taken away based on someone's accusations, but MT has addressed some of the verifiable threats inspired by the shooting, charging at least one with a felony. On the other hand, this is the likely endpoint of this type of action, a person removed from class after posting a video holding a pistol.

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I think that proclaiming yourself to be a professional school shooter and declaring class is in session per your own facebook page, is not an accusation. Your point is made however that there is some nuance to this.

RobG said:

As far as the content of my comments, the majority of Americans think the "guns are inanimate objects so they shouldn't be regulated" argument is inane.

...People look at these semi-auto weapons with big detachable magazines and wonder what the hell do we really need those for.

...Maybe it won't happen in this decade, but this situation with these semi-automatic weapons is not sustainable. Even hunters are gun owners are fed up with it. A couple more school shootings and the game will be over.

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Rob, ban a firearm because... it looks evil... black? Magazine may shoot more bullets... yet, to be further descriptive by use of the link from Outdoor Life on top selections for hunting semi auto rifles and the knowledge of the repetitive reloads done by a 2 round shotguns used in Columbine... (19 reloads total) where do you feel you stop at banning - "X" hunting rifle / shotgun?

Hunters that you mention do not read Outdoor Life Magazine??? Get over it (as you say)... you are a messenger for a select group whether you like it or not...

Outdoor Life Magazine's
20 Versatile Semi-Automatic Rifles
These picks will suit your needs from the range to the woods

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1. AP4 LR-308

A favorite of competitive shooters, it is gaining popularity with big game hunters because of its accuracy and flexibility

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2. Armalite AR-10 A2

Unlike many predecessor AR-prototype rifles, the original ArmaLite AR-10 was chambered in .308 Win., which remains the standard with the new AE-10 A2 and an excellent choice for deer or most big-game. Accurate, fast, well-balanced, and easy to carry, it features Realtree 'Advantage' and 'Hardwoods' camouflage patterns.

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3. Remington R-25

Among the best blends of accuracy, fast follow-up and light recoil in an AR that is chambered for three widely available short-action hunting cartridges suitable for deer and big game.

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4. POF-USA P-415 in 6.8 SPC Spec II

The version chambered for the relatively new 6.8 SPC is suitable for deer, making this AR a good bet for stalking in timber.

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We could go on and on about how a gun kills people though by FACT, be grandpa's side by side hunting shotgun, as one simple example, the reload of is much more a pain and time consuming than a SIMPLE 5 round magazine... none the less a 10 round...

Seems your messenger service is focused more on magazine capacity. Not the firearm itself. So long as we have semi auto "hunting rifles", there will ALWAYS be a way for those with a WILL to inflict such dredded harm.

There is a bigger picture and as I've mentioned before about mental health - it is a slippery slope with respect to the invasion of privacy and the counter productive nature of the confidential necessity for therapists helping those seeking mental help when their confidence is not private. There is an immediate line to address in most states IF a direct threat with the motive and tools to perform such is made to a psychologist / psychiatrist however... to open this further is asking for people seeking mental help to clam up and deal with it themselves... and that does not do well for society as a whole. It is interesting though Buzz and I agree. It is a tough pill to swallow.

Thus, how to reduce such issues... Options aside from banning some semi autos while leaving others available is... nonsense, in my opinion.

More blah, blah from another HT poster (speaking for myself and pretty much everyone here) it is a way for us to discuss, share our thoughts and --- life goes on... Cheers everyone (Rob, I dig you and your various positions... we disagree on this. No harm, no foul).

"Ramble on" as Led Zeppelin sings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Norway

Anyone ever spent much time in Norway? Can provide any insights? I'm not much of a collector or shooter, so I read this and it sounds reasonable. Though I'm not sure exactly how it would stop school shootings, except put a few more hoops to jump through first.

Even if he would’ve been arrested on one of the 39 calls to his house for the Domestic violence it’s still quite a jump to get somebody actually charged with domestic violence and then the victim to go along with prosecution.

I don’t know how many people I’ve arrested for the Domestic violence but if I had to take a guess I would say that less than 1% actually get charged with that. Most of the time the victim wants the charges dropped, refuses to cooperate after he or she’s been hauled off, or it gets pled down to disorderly conduct.