Pronghorn from the 1800's?

El Serio · Jan 23, 2018

I came across an old thread on another site that was discussing the Beck buck taken in 1878, that was the B&C record from the early 1950's to the mid 1970's. Eli Grimmett knew a lot about it and posted some amazing pictures comparing it to the B&C & SCI world records at the time. He stated that based on measurements of a reproduction he had, the buck would likely have measured over 100" even after 2" of fake horn were removed (reason it was disqualified from B&C). This buck was stated to have been taken in antelope valley, which I believe would be part of unit 13A? My understanding is that pronghorn had to be reintroduced into this area, it makes me wonder if some amazing genetics were lost in that area? Does anyone know of other bucks that have survived from those early days, possibly in areas no longer known for huge bucks? Any books or references where I could look for pictures of other information about them?

EliAGrimmett · Jan 23, 2018

Check out Wilson Potters buck from 1899 killed near Oracle, which is just a ways north of Tucson. Amazing buck!

El Serio · Jan 24, 2018

I see the Potter buck listed in the B&C record buck. 20" horn lengths is pretty amazing, especially considering the many decades it had to dry before being measured. Found the picture on your site at http://www.pronghornguideservice.com/90-picture-list.html (Beck buck is there as well) That area around Tucson is not really known as a bastion for 90" bucks now, do you suppose the genetics were wiped out, or they just lost the best habitat?

EliAGrimmett · Jan 24, 2018

As far as I know the antelope in that area are all gone. I remember reading that all the habitat was lost because of the encroachment of unfriendly antelope habitat. I can’t rememeber exactly what kind. I’ll look it up when I get the chance.

1_pointer · Jan 25, 2018

That Potter buck looks alien! Crazy big.

Thanks to the OP for bringing up the topic and to Eli for having those pictures in one place. One thing I find amazing about that collection of pictures is how much more impressive visually to me some 90"+ bucks are compared to others.

El Serio · Jan 25, 2018

The unusual configuration of those two really old bucks makes them stand out doesn't it? Makes you wonder if some of those unusual configurations were once fairly common in some areas and were subsequently wiped out, or if these heads just survived because they were extraordinary. I wish I had a time machine so I could go back and see what they were like. I suspect that some of the best historical populations were in areas that now hold no pronghorn due to settlements being built in the areas with the best water and soil.

El Serio · Jan 25, 2018

EliAGrimmett said:
As far as I know the antelope in that area are all gone. I remember reading that all the habitat was lost because of the encroachment of unfriendly antelope habitat. I can’t rememeber exactly what kind. I’ll look it up when I get the chance.

I see in the national pronghorn census performed in 1922-24 that they only found a herd of 30 on a mesa west of Oracle. In those days there were a lot of domestic sheep on rangelands all over the west, this is just a guess but could overgrazing combined with drought (the dust bowl occurred the next decade after that census) have destroyed the habitat?

1_pointer · Jan 25, 2018

They stand out for sure! Interesting you bring up water/soil. An article I read a few years back looked at whitetail entries into the B&C book. One of the best correlations was with soils!! Not only for the mineral content, but also for the productivity.

EliAGrimmett · Jan 25, 2018

Soil would be an interesting thing to look at specifically. I haven't dug into that yet.

The ranchers running sheep destroyed the antelope populations but it really had nothing to do with over grazing. It was primarily because of the many woven wire sheep fences that had to be used. We lease several ranches in New Mexico that were once sheep ranches. The antelope on these ranches were wiped out because they couldn't move around and escape predators. Or move to areas with water when it dried up in their pasture. The antelope on these ranches had to be transplanted back onto the ranch so there would be a population. Some of it might have been over grazing but just looking around New Mexico in areas with tremendous antelope country and plenty of feed that still run sheep, the same result - no antelope to be found.

Some 90 inch bucks don't look big. Others, like the Potter buck, look like they should score 100". It's one of the reasons pronghorn are so tough to field judge.

Also, one thing to note that may or may not be true - we've noticed in our years of scouting that bucks that hook forward like the Potter buck tend to come from warmer climates. Perhaps why bucks in Wyoming very rarely have that shape and bucks in Arizona will have that shape quite a bit more often. I imagine Oracle would have been very hot.

Also, Allen's Rule could be one of the reasons for the tremendous length on the Potter buck. David E. Brown talks about this in one of the Arizona Record Books. And it's also been a working theory of ours for why pronghorn seem to be so much larger during extreme droughts. Because on the surface, it doesn't seem to make any sense.

El Serio · Jan 25, 2018

Fences that they can't get under sure seem to be the end of antelope herds, even if the enclosure is fairly large. My brother works for a defense contractor that has a high chain link fence around an area of at least 5 square miles. There was a resident herd of pronghorn inside, but their numbers were depleted until there was only one lonely old doe following the mule deer around. Eventually she died and no antelope remain.

To me one of the most deceptive bucks in that gallery is the Utah State Record buck. At first glance (or second, or third) I would never have guessed he would be the state record. Chalk up another one to your field judging method. Very impressive that you guys have taken two 90" bucks from Utah, not many can find an 80" buck here.

Allen's rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen's_rule seems like a reasonable explanation. Habitat conditions & genetics must play a part too, after all Sonoran and Peninsular pronghorn are further south and have much smaller horns, but their habitat seems less than optimal.

Do you guys keep measurements of the bone cores that the horn sheaths grow on? I have noticed on the limited number of heads that I have at my disposal that the bone was definitely larger on the bucks with better bottom mass. Have you seen anything similar on the big bucks? There might also connect with the observation that you made in this old thread https://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?246199-Genetics-and-Predicting-the-Future that many great bucks were born in years with great precipitation. Seems like if their skull is well developed they will have good bottom mass their whole life?

EliAGrimmett · Jan 25, 2018

That's what we've noticed on big bucks - they all have big horn cores. Long bucks have long cores and heavy bucks have massive cores. Which is why I was hypothesizing that bucks born on great years would be bigger throughout life...thinking that their horn cores (along with bones and bodies) would grow larger quicker.

Rick's Utah buck can be deceiving. His bottom mass was extreme! The base was 7-3/8 and his 1st quarter was 8-2/8. His short prong was 6-4/8.

As for Allen's Rule and the farther south pronghorn - I remember David E. Brown was trying to find more samples of bucks from Old Mexico but had a hard time locating very many. And very few in the southern areas of Arizona as well. Probably too few antelope ever harvested to make any kind of connection to Allen's Rule (or any rule for that matter).

El Serio · Jan 25, 2018

I saw 7-3/8 for the base, but since all measurements aren't in the B&C book, I didn't realize the 1st quarter was so huge. I think that is part of why bucks like that are so hard to judge, the huge bottom mass makes the prongs and length look smaller than they really are.

I remember Jack O'Connor said in one of his books that he hunted in Sonora a number of times and never saw a good buck, and I know that one DNA study I read about mentioned less genetic diversity down there. I agree that sparse populations like that would be difficult to draw conclusions about.

I find it interesting that clear back in the 1870's, Allen specifically mentioned pronghorn as an example in his paper elaborating this rule. Just wish there were some photographs, or measurements included to give us a better sense of what they knew then. Clearly it was already known that the biggest average horns were found at southern latitudes, Does make me wonder how big they grew over in the Central Valley of California. That seems like it would have been good habitat too and they say the populations were huge.

EliAGrimmett · Jan 26, 2018

I've never had the chance to scout for antelope in California. You mention Central Valley - are the antelope from that area gone now? Or just small with low populations?

Bigjay73 · Jan 26, 2018

Sort of with the topic. If anyone following this thread is from Az, G&F, Az antelope foundation, and the Az chapter of the mule deer foundation do quite a few fence projects around the state to help lopes and mule deer. Things like spacing the top wires, and replacing bottom wires with higher, barbless wires. If you can get in touch with a gentleman named Terry Henrndon with MDF, he can probably give you some info. Great way to spend a weekend.

El Serio · Jan 26, 2018

EliAGrimmett said:
I've never had the chance to scout for antelope in California. You mention Central Valley - are the antelope from that area gone now? Or just small with low populations?

My understanding is that they were wiped out in the Central Valley, but that a small population was transplanted back in, not sure how it has fared, I think the only place that their native population survived without restoration is in the northwest corner of the state which is adjacent to the better areas of Nevada. Since those areas produce some good bucks from time to time, it makes me wonder if the ones from the southern central valley could have been better. I picture that being prime habitat prior to settlement, with plenty of food, water and mild temperatures year round. It would be really interesting if some old heads or measurements from heads in that area were to turn up.

Southern Elk · Jan 26, 2018

Interesting topic. I can't contribute other than sharing these pictures. A 90 inch antelope is truly amazing to see, especially in person. This one is on display at Cabelas in Billings.

EliAGrimmett · Jan 27, 2018

Bigjay73 said:
Sort of with the topic. If anyone following this thread is from Az, G&F, Az antelope foundation, and the Az chapter of the mule deer foundation do quite a few fence projects around the state to help lopes and mule deer. Things like spacing the top wires, and replacing bottom wires with higher, barbless wires. If you can get in touch with a gentleman named Terry Henrndon with MDF, he can probably give you some info. Great way to spend a weekend.

I've known Terry for over 20 years. He actually guided a couple antelope hunts for us back when we had a lot more leased ground in New Mexico. Great guy!

Pronghorn from the 1800's?

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