Wyoming G&F Improvements

I believe that overt-all the WYGF does a great job, there are some minor things that can be adjusted on a yearly basis, mainly just quotas.

The Wilderness guide law is a dead end that would require legislation to be repealed. It would be nice to see that happen, but IMO, its more of a perception problem as those that gripe it about would likely not hunt wilderness areas much. I think its the idea that causes the most angst, and understandably so.

The issue of mule deer is being addressed via mule deer working groups. I am not in favor of any more LQ areas, choose a region, or any of that. I am also not in favor of APR's other than in a short term deal to increase buck to doe ratio's. That's been discussed at length on this board and others, long term APR's are a joke and don't work at all. IMO, it would be wise to focus on growing the deer herd, which means things like eliminating youth doe harvest. You grow a herd by keeping does and fawns alive, not limiting buck harvest. Another way to help mule deer, for those that seem so concerned about...is to stop blastjng mule deer "to fill the freezer". IMO, mule deer isn't that great from a table fare standpoint. If people need to "fill the freezer," that's what cow elk are for and we have a lot of opportunity for that. Plus the meat is wayyy better than mule deer. Wyoming hunters also forget that we have another species of deer as well, hunt whitetails rather than filling a tag on a mule deer.

As far as regions G and H, if cuts need to happen, continue to cut NR tags first. I think that shorter seasons with a later starting date, closer to October 1 combined with a shorter over-all season would be a good idea.

The best thing that anyone can do is to stay in contact with the GF and the biologists in the area you hunt. Quit trying to out-think them with arm-chair fixes and stupid ideas like long term APR's...the science is in on that discussion. Use LQ areas as a last resort when called for. Think growing the deer herd over-all versus trying to just force regulations that grow bigger bucks. Think season timing, length, etc. (that includes looking at shorter archery seasons too).

The GF does a tremendous job of balancing hunter opportunity with season length, maintaining buck to doe ratio's, and also trying to grow the over-all population. Our migration studies are going well, and we're finding things out that may help long-term. Continuing to focus on habitat is a good idea too.

As to the corner crossing issue, its a non-issue, many of us do it all the time and its not being actively enforced at all....about like parking next to a highway or freeway to access public land.

I'll be continuing to work with the biologists in the areas I hunt most to adjust elk objective numbers, help mule deer, etc. etc. These threads are great for airing of the grievances, but not where problems get solved.
 
APR could be used to improve the number of bigger bucks.
APR that said three point or smaller instead of four point or better might work but that would not be very popular.
 
Its not what the data suggests, you shift harvest from 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks...not many more slip through with APR's. Closing roads and limiting easy access will make a much bigger difference.

I agree that in the short term APR's can help with improving buck to doe ratio's by keeping an age class alive an extra year, but that's about as far as it goes. Same with not allowing spikes to be killed in our general elk areas...works well to improve bull to cow ratio's in the short term by keeping spikes alive another year. Beyond that, its a not going to help with bigger bulls.
 
Oh Boy! Does this sound self serving to anyone else?

"Eliminating youth doe harvest"
"Shorter archery seasons"
"continue to cut non resident tags"

Are you looking out for all hunters?
 
Oh Boy! Does this sound self serving to anyone else?

"Eliminating youth doe harvest"
"Shorter archery seasons"
"continue to cut non resident tags"

Are you looking out for all hunters?

I am. If rifle hunters are going to have to cut season length, why shouldn't archery hunters as well? I guess in your opinion, the "we" in "we're all in this together" shouldn't include archery hunters?

If mule deer are at the point we're talking about going LQ, because of low deer numbers, why should there be ANY doe harvest at all? I've looked at data from several years provided by WYGF biologists, where the difference between growing various deer herds here came down to a handful of additional does/fawns surviving. Does that were killed by archery hunters and youth hunters. There is ample opportunity for youth to take antlerless whitetails, up to 4 doe/fawn pronghorn, 2 buck deer, 3 antlerless elk, as well as 2 buck pronghorn. I don't see the need for youth to whack a mule deer doe when the idea is to grow the herd. Its also a great opportunity for adults to explain biology, and why we don't kill does when the herd cant take the additional harvest...you know, conservation rather than whack and stack. ****For the record, archery hunters did stop allowing mule deer doe harvest and also must comply with general regs regarding APR's, etc., which is what they should do.***** Time to get youth hunting on the same page.

Also I don't see a need to do anything in regions G and H...the bellyaching is primarily from NR's that want R opportunity decreased there, only returning the favor in kind.

So you're clear about my agenda, here it is in order from first to last, and I wont apologize to anyone for it.

1. Do whats best for habitat, wild places, and the wildlife FIRST, by a landslide, based on best available science for all citizens, hunters, wildlife watchers, non-hunters, etc.

Wayyy down the list...

2. Maximize Resident opportunity.
3. Non-resident DIY opportunity.
4. Landowners
5. Outfitters
 
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APR could be used to improve the number of bigger bucks.
APR that said three point or smaller instead of four point or better might work but that would not be very popular.

Part of the belief these regulations will work among sportsmen is linked to an assumed perception of reduced vulnerability of males to harvest once they are successfully recruited to the older age classes. While reduced vulnerability to harvest definitely occurs at some level, the data suggests it is not enough to prevent reductions in these age classes under most scenarios evaluated. Also, heavily roaded hunt areas may not provide security habitats necessary for older aged mule deer to escape harvest, despite increased experience. Additionally, there is a misperception that an APR won’t allow for younger aged animals to be harvested, when in fact many young-aged cervids (often the “best” genetically) meet the minimum restriction for number of points and can be legally harvested.

I'm with Buzz, if you want to grow bigger bucks, a travel plan is IMO the first place to look in terms of meaningful impacts.
 
Wyoming G&F Website

One thing I think WGF needs major props for is their website. Since their redesign, I think they have one of the best I've used in terms of being user friendly and having all the information right there. In addition, license applications there are about as easy as they come. I for one really appreciate that.
 
Buzz what is your suggestion on the following scenario which is not hypothetical but relevant to many mule deer units in Wyoming:

- The unit is general season for residents
- Season is 10-14 days in October
- Unit has great trophy potential but only produces a small fraction of the trophies that it could
- Pressure is above average, but not severe
- Mule deer doe harvest does not affect the public land animals as the does are shot on private, and the bulk of the public keeps the deer which rarely if ever enter private land
- Access to the public is good
- Unit is mostly public land

If you need more details let me know. Thanks and happy new year Buzz!!
 
It has been determined that corner crossing is criminal trespass so it is up to the Sheriffs Office to enforce.
ClearCreek

This is an incorrect statement. Replace the word "is" between "crossing" and "criminal" with "may be" and you will have it right ClearCreek.
 
Buzz what is your suggestion on the following scenario which is not hypothetical but relevant to many mule deer units in Wyoming:

- The unit is general season for residents
- Season is 10-14 days in October
- Unit has great trophy potential but only produces a small fraction of the trophies that it could
- Pressure is above average, but not severe
- Mule deer doe harvest does not affect the public land animals as the does are shot on private, and the bulk of the public keeps the deer which rarely if ever enter private land
- Access to the public is good
- Unit is mostly public land

If you need more details let me know. Thanks and happy new year Buzz!!

Not Buzz but,

How do you determine trophy potential?
What is the current trophy output?
What is the current buck:doe ratio?
Do you have classification data from flight surveys?
Is the deer herd at or near carrying capacity?

I will go ahead and make the assumption there is a pretty healthy road density in this unit. Start there.
 
Its not what the data suggests, you shift harvest from 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks...not many more slip through with APR's.

I agree with with Buzz on 4 point or better but I doubt there is much data on three point or less. I can not think of any place it has been tried.

My experience with closing roads is that it is temporary at best, but my experience is mostly limited to SE MT. Might work much better in the mountains
 
Its not what the data suggests, you shift harvest from 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks...not many more slip through with APR's.

I agree with with Buzz on 4 point or better but I doubt there is much data on three point or less. I can not think of any place it has been tried.

My experience with closing roads is that it is temporary at best, but my experience is mostly limited to SE MT. Might work much better in the mountains

Sorry Art, I misread your post. I have seen similar rules for elk, where they are limited to spike only, and permit only for branched antler bulls. Yes, you are correct in that you can achieve a pretty impressive upper age class through seasons like this. I still dislike it because of the “quality of Hunt” it can perpetuate, but it certainly can help age classes.
 
After looking back at my post I see I could have chosen my words better and for the record I think that there are less drastic ways to improve the herd than a three point or less season.
Too often I see people proposing a solution that puts few restrictions on there hunting and heavy restrictions on other hunters. Four point or better APR and more road less hunting are two good examples.
 
Not Buzz but,

How do you determine trophy potential?
What is the current trophy output?
What is the current buck:doe ratio?
Do you have classification data from flight surveys?
Is the deer herd at or near carrying capacity?

I will go ahead and make the assumption there is a pretty healthy road density in this unit. Start there.

You know what, I thought about this a little more and believe that the units I am referring to need to have the non resident tags cut. I honestly do believe that would increase trophy quality and reduce pressure significantly. The problem with that solution is that means less money for G&F as that's where they make their money, so I don't see that happening.
 
Its not what the data suggests, you shift harvest from 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks...not many more slip through with APR's.

I agree with with Buzz on 4 point or better but I doubt there is much data on three point or less. I can not think of any place it has been tried.

My experience with closing roads is that it is temporary at best, but my experience is mostly limited to SE MT. Might work much better in the mountains

I think it would be an awesome thing to try for 10 years in a chunk of units Art, (small bucks only) the other way doesn't work anywhere I have watched.

For the "how to improve deer" part of this thread all you do is have as good of habitat as is possible, keep it full of does with a moderate buck/doe ratio and minimize fawn mortality. In no time you will be swimming in deer if you can achieve the last one, right up until you hit the wall of the limits of the winter range in a tough winter.

If the goal is big bucks, stop shooting bucks, within ten years you will not believe what you are seeing. I've been privileged to watch it run full cycle and it was an amazing show, until new mgmt moved in. You learn to eat elk, it's easy.

I know, I coulda just quoted Buzz but that is beyond my pain threshold.
 
I think it would be an awesome thing to try for 10 years in a chunk of units Art, (small bucks only) the other way doesn't work anywhere I have watched.

For the "how to improve deer" part of this thread all you do is have as good of habitat as is possible, keep it full of does with a moderate buck/doe ratio and minimize fawn mortality. In no time you will be swimming in deer if you can achieve the last one, right up until you hit the wall of the limits of the winter range in a tough winter.

If the goal is big bucks, stop shooting bucks, within ten years you will not believe what you are seeing. I've been privileged to watch it run full cycle and it was an amazing show, until new mgmt moved in. You learn to eat elk, it's easy.

I know, I coulda just quoted Buzz but that is beyond my pain threshold.

I think it's a lot easier for residents to hold off on shooting bucks vs non residents and that is one thought that brought me to cutting non resident tags. Knowing I can just go buy a tag for the same unit next year makes me a lot more selective in my decision if I want to kill a Muley buck or not.
 
I think it's a lot easier for residents to hold off on shooting bucks vs non residents and that is one thought that brought me to cutting non resident tags. Knowing I can just go buy a tag for the same unit next year makes me a lot more selective in my decision if I want to kill a Muley buck or not.

Do you have harvest data for res and NR hunters to back this up? How many NR tags are allocated vs. the number of resident hunters in those units? My experience over the years leads me to believe there is very little distinction between the two.
 
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