CWD Found in MT

Hunting Wife · Dec 9, 2017

375H&H said:
I was only providing a thought that perhaps CWD is natures way of righting itself in response to either an inflated population or significantly unnatural ecosystem, say one without all natural predators. The same way mad cow righted the unnatural aspect of cows eating cow offal (cannibalism).

Outside of that, if only people who work on the subject in the thread and are formally educated on it comment on it, then it would be quite the short conversation.

From what little I know regarding details about where and when the disease was discovered, I would have to guess it would more likely be a product of unnatural congregation of wild ungulates in captivity than a response to altered predator populations. But I don’t know that we have any way of actually answering that question. I think there might be others here with a deeper understanding of the origins of CWD than I have though. The animals are more my thing.

Hunting Wife · Dec 9, 2017

JLS said:
Thank you Hunting Wife for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

Thanks. I’m by no means one of the “experts”, but I’ve done some work and know some stuff that I think hunters need to understand if they are going to be meaningfully engaged on this issue.

Drake4 · Dec 9, 2017

Greenhorn said:
Topgun 30-06, I'm thinking of signing up for this special CWD hunt. What is it like for access, also trophy potential, meat palatability, places to park, camp, dine, and have my meat processed. Thanks in advance.

I know a pretty good spot. We can pull off the interstate and hike in from there. Is that legal?

JM77 · Dec 9, 2017

onpoint said:
Seems a fair number of people have pretty strong ideas and opinions about this this wildlife management issue. If you are a sportsman/woman - rightfully so.
That being said, wildlife management is done by largely by government agencies. The folks who utilize that resource are the ones who pay for those services and to be fully and knowledgeably engaged - need to be engaged.
To be engage folks need to be "showing up".

So, how many of the guys with the opinions on this topic actually:
Actively engage with and stay in contact with their respective wildlife mgmt agencies?
Show up for public informational and comment meetings and/or communicate comments to the agencies?
Actively take part in local sportsmans/womans groups - I don't mean "hey I belong to RMEF"...?
Try and get fellow hunter/anglers to get involved?
As a citizen, take part in the actual legislative process?
Just wondering.
I'm going hunting...................

On this thread, I can vouch for two people doing all those things and one of them is BuzzH.

Topgun 30-06 · Dec 9, 2017

Drake4 said:
I know a pretty good spot. We can pull off the interstate and hike in from there. Is that legal?

Enough with the childish comments that are taking us off the serious subject of this thread, and the answer to your question is still a big NO. If you haven't seen all the signs along the Interstate Highway system in all the states that say stopping is allowed only in an emergency then you had better quit texting and start watching the road!

Topgun 30-06 · Dec 9, 2017

JM77 said:
I'm going to weigh in on this for several reasons, the least being the childish behavior surrounding several exchanges and different people.

Obviously, the Wyoming G&F Dept doesn't feel any elk or deer herds have been "decimated" enough by CWD to close any hunting areas. In fact, the deer area with the highest CWD rate known, area 65, (as high as 49% of hunter killed deer testing positive), is still a general, over the counter area for residents. Ok, enough of that.

I'm sure some of you have heard of Lucky the elk. Lucky is the sole survivor from some 38 elk calves brought to the Sybille Research Unit between Laramie and Wheatland, where it is known that CWD prions exist in the soil. Lucky, who is now 13 years old, has a different genetic makeup found in a very low percentage of elk. What is beginning to be seen in Wyoming, as time goes on, more animals are surviving longer with CWD. The longer they survive, the longer they pass on their more resistant genes. Elk, like Lucky, could be the very reason. Now I am not a biologist, but I have talked to a few about this. There is some school of thought, that wiping out herds within CWD areas could slow the "possible" natural process of the change in genetics that resist CWD.

All this being said, apparently no one knows how to handle this disease with any certainty. So all of you commenting on here, take that into consideration while you argue about something that no one really has a grasp on yet. As far as where CWD came from? It very well could have been Sybille in Wyoming. No one really knows that for sure either.

Thanks for those comments Jeff, as it helps to clear up what I was trying to get across when I used the word decimated. Yes, CWD is a serious situation wherever it is found and it appears to be just about everywhere from the midwest states all the way out through at least CO, WY, and MT. I'm not taking it lightly like some may think because I guess I haven't expressed myself in the proper words, but anything that takes any amount of animals out of a herd is something to take seriously. I had read recently of what you mentioned about genetic resistance to CWD and is the main reason I agreed with Eric's statement that I hoped others don't follow what I called "Wisconsin's kneejerk reaction" when they went in and wiped out a ton of deer without even doing testing on most of the animals before they were dumped in landfills. Right now we have a CWD area within about 50 miles of where I live here in MI. All deer taken during the hunting season in that area must be taken to DNR check stations for mandatory CWD testing, so I'm more than thinking just about the problem out in the western states with it now hitting close to home!

BuzzH · Dec 9, 2017

Drake4 said:
I know a pretty good spot. We can pull off the interstate and hike in from there. Is that legal?

If interstate parking is going to be part of the hunt...can I tag along with you and Greenhorn?

I did a bit of glassing off an interstate on my recent elk hunt in AZ. Had the spotter set up on a tripod when a HP drove by and waved.

Strange I didn't get a ticket?

Topgun 30-06 · Dec 9, 2017

^^^Another childish BS post from the stalking peanut gallery that only takes away from this serious thread and you say you're not a stalker! You and Greenhorn need to get a room and leave this thread to adults!

belly-deep · Dec 9, 2017

Topgun 30-06 said:
^^^Another childish BS post from the stalking peanut gallery that only takes away from this serious thread and you say you're not a stalker! You and Greenhorn need to get a room and leave this thread to adults!

Topgoon, you are no adult.

Northwoods Labs · Dec 10, 2017

Hunting Wife said:
I haven’t placed words in anyone’s mouth. Please tell me what words I placed in your mouth? You said populations weren’t being affected, and I presented evidence to the contrary. I also invited you to do the same- present evidence to refute my statements. No need to get all worked up...

One more stab at it...caveat that I haven’t done any work in Wisconsin and haven’t read anything on it recently, but this is the basic storyline IIRC. Wisconsin started out with an aggressive culling strategy and maintaining eradication zones (killed lots of deer to maintain isolation of the disease). Under that strategy, they kept the disease from spreading much geographically and held the prevalence somewhere under 2%. Then they caved to public opinion and political pressure, stopped their aggressive strategy and switched to simply monitoring the disease. Since they stopped their containment efforts, prevalence has spiked upwards of 30% and CWD has spread across a wide geographic area. That leads many to believe their only mistake was not maintaining their aggressive strategy. If anyone sees something incorrect in my recollection, please chime in.

You know what they say around here...pics or it didn’t happen. We should treat facts the same way.....links or its all in your head.

Since I see we’ve now devolved to name calling, seems like a good time to go do something else.

Yea you pretty much hit the nail on the head with Wisconsin. We also caved to political pressure and did not ban baiting and feeding statewide. CWD is out of control in the southwest part of the state. It is spreading based on what Hunting Wife stated, as well as the fact that it keeps popping up on game farms.

Folks like topgun are so hung up on short term impacts, like aggressive harvesting, they fail to take into account the long-term impacts of CWD.

Topgun 30-06 · Dec 10, 2017

Northwoods Labs said:
Yea you pretty much hit the nail on the head with Wisconsin. We also caved to political pressure and did not ban baiting and feeding statewide. CWD is out of control in the southwest part of the state. It is spreading based on what Hunting Wife stated, as well as the fact that it keeps popping up on game farms.

Folks like topgun are so hung up on short term impacts, like aggressive harvesting, they fail to take into account the long-term impacts of CWD.

Please don't reference me in any of your posts like that because you have no idea what my thoughts are outside of the little I've posted here. You may also be wrong about aggressive harvesting if you haven't read the latest on the scientific theory that postulates that the herds may be best left alone so that genetics can build up an immunity to the disease (see the jm77 post). This may lead to more initial die offs than people want or care to see and it will probably take generations over a lot of time, but it may be the way to go as far as working on the long term effects of CWD that we should all be worried about.

Hunting Wife · Dec 10, 2017

Topgun 30-06 said:
You may also be wrong about aggressive harvesting if you haven't read the latest on the scientific theory that postulates that the herds may be best left alone so that genetics can build up an immunity to the disease (see the jm77 post). This may lead to more initial die offs than people want or care to see and it will probably take generations over a lot of time, but it may be the way to go as far as working on the long term effects of CWD that we should all be worried about.

Maybe we are talking past each other because I’m looking at this purely from the perspective of a state that just had its initial detection of the disease (as described in the OP). Let’s try this again, with fewer adult beverages in my system this time...

I’ve seen conflicting articles with models that disagree about whether or not genotypic changes in populations will occur fast enough to stave off extirpation. Most of the models appear to have been parameterized by using data from healthy populations so I suspect they might not be super applicable to populations that are already struggling without CWD, like mule deer in so many places. Hoping that genotypic shifts will eventually lead to resistance and stabilizing populations might make some sense for a state that has such widespread infection and high prevalences that you literally have no other known option at this point. But for a state like Montana which is dealing with a first detection I just don’t think it would be wise to pin your hopes on that strategy with so little supporting evidence, for the simple fact that once you start down that road, you can’t go back. At the current time and in the current situation, it would not be my first choice.

Deleted member 20812 · Dec 10, 2017

It’s certainly an “all-in” gamble if genetic resistance is what you’re betting on.

npaden · Dec 10, 2017

1 in 38 calves had genetic resistance. That's 2.6% of the population. If we are down to hoping for that to be the defense against CWD, I don't see how you can say we aren't looking at "decimation".

Also, what other genetic issues might that very small segment of the population have? There are a lot more things that they need the genetics to survive in the wild than just a resistance to CWD.

walking buffalo · Dec 10, 2017

When considering evolutionary genetic resistance to this disease.

Hunting would be a negative force in allowing this to potentially occur.
We can't have people shooting those rare and critical specimens that may provide the genetic key to surviving the storm.

Anyone advocating for letting the deer figure it out on their own?
Are you prepared to give up hunting?

This concept of NOT trying to control and limit the spread of CWD tend to forget the implications IF the disease turns out to be infectious to humans.
With hindsight in this scenario, you have advocated for letting the Human life threatening disease spread.

DOn't forget the agricultural implications. CWD has been shown to be up-taken by agricultural crops in laboratory settings.
I suspect no one is willing to test the real deal. A publicly exposed positive CWD corn or wheat harvest would shatter the economy.

If Cwd is proven to be infectious to humans, ALL CWD positive landscapes are now Level 1 Biohazards. No more wild ungulates, No more agriculture.

We have to take the long term cautious approach to this disease.
Short term ideals such maintaining high populations for the sake of hunting simply have to be overridden by the big picture.

1_pointer · Dec 11, 2017

npaden said:
1 in 38 calves had genetic resistance. That's 2.6% of the population. If we are down to hoping for that to be the defense against CWD, I don't see how you can say we aren't looking at "decimation".

Also, what other genetic issues might that very small segment of the population have? There are a lot more things that they need the genetics to survive in the wild than just a resistance to CWD.

While I don't disagree, I also think it'd be probable that the percentage of calves with resistance would increase with time. Genetic components that greatly influence survivorship can increase in a given population very quickly.

double_a85 · Dec 11, 2017

I was reminded by my younger brother that about 8-10 years ago we harvested deer in the Ashland area. When going through the check station they asked to keep the heads... can any of you help me in remembering if this was for CWD testing or something else? Also, around that same time, I shot two cows in the breaks on the first year the state was doing damage hunts and they collected those heads as well.

I had my deer tested in 590 that was harvested this year( came back negative), and now foresee having all animals tested in the future.

Another note, if CWD ever jumps the species barrier... to humans, or even to livestock... how will the politics play out? I can see it getting ugly, exponentially worse than the forum bickering currently going on here. I hope science can catch up with CWD to maybe give us some more answers than questions and concerns we have, as well as take away from all the assumptions and guesses we as the public have been making

Hunting Wife · Dec 11, 2017

double_a85 said:
I was reminded by my younger brother that about 8-10 years ago we harvested deer in the Ashland area. When going through the check station they asked to keep the heads... can any of you help me in remembering if this was for CWD testing or something else? Also, around that same time, I shot two cows in the breaks on the first year the state was doing damage hunts and they collected those heads as well.

Yes, those were taken for CWD testing. FWP used to collect heads at check stations, at drop barrels around the state, and from meat processors who agreed to save heads for them.

belly-deep · Dec 12, 2017

walking buffalo said:
When considering evolutionary genetic resistance to this disease.

Hunting would be a negative force in allowing this to potentially occur.
We can't have people shooting those rare and critical specimens that may provide the genetic key to surviving the storm.

Anyone advocating for letting the deer figure it out on their own?
Are you prepared to give up hunting?

This concept of NOT trying to control and limit the spread of CWD tend to forget the implications IF the disease turns out to be infectious to humans.
.

Very true. Letting deer genetics sort this out is preferable only if it never transmits to humans. If we let carriers proliferate then the impact on deer may be reduced or resolved. But if it starts transferring to humans, then we just end up with a large population of deer that have no food value.

There’s no clear answer to this problem really right now. Too many unknowns.

CWD Found in MT

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