Western States Fires Altering Plans?

Sytes, the link is informative and your description of the issue succinctly expresses the economic problem(s). However, even if the logging and timber industry ramped up to a level beyond what it was a few decades ago, forest management would not result in the neatly thinned, open forests depicted in BigHornRam's link ... the public forest lands are just too vast for that to be realistic. Many would point to the forest management of the significantly less amount of forest in Europe as the model, but that is not realistic either, nor do we necessarily want that "domesticated" wildland scenario. Furthermore, it obviously has resulted in the model for hunting extremely different from the North American Wildlife Conservation Model which supports our highly valued hunting privilege. Extensive timber harvesting would not make much of a difference during severe drought and the high summer temperatures such as we are currently experiencing.

When we conjecture about how we can mitigate wildfires by increasing logging, opening the mills, changing the lumber trade agreements, stopping all the frivolous litigation, thinning and cleaning our forests, and such attempts ... Mother Nature merely smiles and once again is amused at the egocentric silly self-aggrandizement of man.
 
Getting back to the topic at hand, I am planning a couple night pack in bow hunt trip this coming weekend. Big fire is in the proximity of where I plan to hunt, so plans could change. Glad I am a resident. We have a lot more options than the unfortunate non resident that has been planning for a year to come to Montana to hunt elk and deer.
 
I believe the Federal Government would LOVE to do more work in its forests, but "OVER-LITIGATED" really as mentioned above is really the key.

Try to do anything in the forests and you get a lawsuit and desist order slapped down immediately - keep in mind this is our own citizens stopping the government from doing its job.
 
I believe the Federal Government would LOVE to do more work in its forests, but "OVER-LITIGATED" really as mentioned above is really the key.

Try to do anything in the forests and you get a lawsuit and desist order slapped down immediately - keep in mind this is our own citizens stopping the government from doing its job.

Keep in mind, litigation only happens when there is grounds for something to be litigated by someone who has standing. All proposed actions must be in compliance with NEPA, SEPA, ESA, and the management plan for the area. Our legal system is amazing in a good way in that it forces all involved to comply with process and policy. Failure to comply leads to litigation.

Buzz has already alluded to this before, it takes time and it takes manpower to review proposed actions and make sure they are in compliance with all the above. Is sufficient manpower being provided for this?

I'm not defending the never ending litigation. Do it right, and you don't have to worry about the litigation.

We are not the far removed from the Smoky The Bear era. This problem wasn't created overnight, and we won't fix it overnight.

Previous statements that this would be different if the land were state owned are ludicrous.

edit: Go back and re-read tjones questions. Who will pay for the removal of the dead trees, and what the hell do you do with them?
 
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Keep in mind, litigation only happens when there is grounds for something to be litigated by someone who has standing. All proposed actions must be in compliance with NEPA, SEPA, ESA, and the management plan for the area. Our legal system is amazing in a good way in that it forces all involved to comply with process and policy. Failure to comply leads to litigation.

Buzz has already alluded to this before, it takes time and it takes manpower to review proposed actions and make sure they are in compliance with all the above. Is sufficient manpower being provided for this?

I'm not defending the never ending litigation. Do it right, and you don't have to worry about the litigation.

We are not the far removed from the Smoky The Bear era. This problem wasn't created overnight, and we won't fix it overnight.

Previous statements that this would be different if the land were state owned are ludicrous.

edit: Go back and re-read tjones questions. Who will pay for the removal of the dead trees, and what the hell do you do with them?
I agree with a lot of this. IME, some projects are going to be appealed/litigated regardless. Some areas nearly all tree cutting will be appealed. In a former job, most all of the grazing decisions were appealed/litigated. If that only arose out of a failure to comply with existing laws, the appellants/litigants would have a 1.000 batting average. They don't. But, all appeals/litigation take a lot of time and money that could be used for other projects. Likewise, IME "standing" is a pretty low hurdle...
 
Montana cut it's fire fund by 50% this last legislature to pay for other programs. If you think the state can afford to manage these lands, you're smoking tree bark.

As for changing plans - yep. Some of my favorite places close to home were set ablaze or are in the path of the current fires. I'm doubting the fires will be completely out until after the season is over. I'm trying to find other places to hunt, but it's sad and I'm losing heart in this season quickly. I'll focus on pronghorn when the season opens, and take it from there.
 
But, all appeals/litigation take a lot of time and money that could be used for other projects.

Absolutely they do. I am curious if land agencies conduct self audits to examine 1) what tends to get litigated most, 2) what was the reason for litigation (i.e. violation of process or policy/law, or both), and 3) could it have been avoided?

I also fully realize that many times, points of litigation are subject to interpretation of law and/or policy, and as such, the it is impossible to do things and make them impervious to litigation.
 
Absolutely they do. I am curious if land agencies conduct self audits to examine 1) what tends to get litigated most, 2) what was the reason for litigation (i.e. violation of process or policy/law, or both), and 3) could it have been avoided?

I also fully realize that many times, points of litigation are subject to interpretation of law and/or policy, and as such, the it is impossible to do things and make them impervious to litigation.

And because of that, many politicians think the answer is to limit involvement of the public in public land management decisions. Which is wrong.

EAJA is a good tool, and one that keeps our government accountable to the people. Rather than trying to mess with things like this, working on funding issues to ensure that our managers have what is needed to do their jobs should be congresses' priority. But $5 says it won't be.
 
Absolutely they do. I am curious if land agencies conduct self audits to examine 1) what tends to get litigated most, 2) what was the reason for litigation (i.e. violation of process or policy/law, or both), and 3) could it have been avoided?

I also fully realize that many times, points of litigation are subject to interpretation of law and/or policy, and as such, the it is impossible to do things and make them impervious to litigation.
Where I worked on it #1 was very apparent (grazing), #2 is a bit slippery, but policy interpretations and in one case data differences were the cause and for #3 in the projects I worked on, a whole lot of effort was done to avoid it, but to no avail.

Ben Lamb- I'm not for scrapping EAJA as I think it has usefulness, warts and all. However, the payments only go one way and IMO there's room to remedy that without getting rid of the whole thing.
 
Ben Lamb- I'm not for scrapping EAJA as I think it has usefulness, warts and all. However, the payments only go one way and IMO there's room to remedy that without getting rid of the whole thing.

Devil is in the details. How do you make a loser pay scenario for groups who have little cash or membership? Isn't that essentially democracy as pay to play?
 
Put together your business plan, find some investors, assume the liability of a shuttered mill and get to work.
Good to point out, Ben. The point is that you always seem smarter than "they" and have a better idea ... until you have to provide the resources, investment, and hard work to implement your "better" idea.
 
Good to point out, Ben. The point is that you always seem smarter than "they" and have a better idea ... until you have to provide the resources, investment, and hard work to implement your "better" idea.
And then have the Bernie Sanders crowd help themselves to 90% of the profits you worked hard to earn. No thanks guys, think I'll go hunting instead.
 
And then have the Bernie Sanders crowd help themselves to 90% of the profits you worked hard to earn. No thanks guys, think I'll go hunting instead.

I'm a small business owner. I pay about 33% of my total business income to taxes. If you're paying 90%, you have an awful accountant.
 
I'm a small business owner. I pay about 33% of my total business income to taxes. If you're paying 90%, you have an awful accountant.

How many Democrats voted for Bernie? How many of you guys voted for Bernie? Bernie was advocating for up to a 90% tax rate on the "millionaires and billionaires". The writing is on the wall where this country is heading. Who in their right mind would make a big business investment right now, especially in an industry that is demonized like the timber industry? I'll spend my time and effort defending the businesses that are left.
 
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