Looks like Wyoming is gonna pass a new law for real sportsman

Vikingsguy,

About everything you listed is already on the books.

1. The FS/BLM have camping limits on public land and do enforce it. Not sure how additional legislation would be of any benefit.

2. Corner crossing in Wyoming is not illegal, but not exactly legal either. Here is what I can tell you about it, since you seem like legal language is important to you:

a. There is State AG opinion, written by a now GF commissioner that states corner crossing with NO INTENT to hunt the surrounding private is not trespassing to hunt.
b. The GF has been instructed to NOT write tickets for corner crossing.
c. I know of one over-zealous warden that scratched a ticket for it last year, and it was promptly ripped up and done away with.
d. Judge Castor in Albany county heard a corner crossing case and found in favor of the person who crossed the corner, but unfortunately was not at a high enough level to set precedent.

As JLS pointed out, it would be extremely difficult to move legislation forward to clarify corner crossing. The landowners don't want to see it taken to court, as they have the most to lose. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Sportsmen are too passive, disorganized, cheap (look at how they howl about license fees), and lack the fundamental drive it would take to move this kind of legislation forward.

This isn't an issue where a couple motivated sportsmen can throw their coffee money together and ask their friends neighbor, who is an attorney, to scribble out some legislation. This one will take considerable money, and the absolute best access/public lands savvy attorney money can buy. Hell, its a big ask to get people to fund WY's AccessYes program...let alone something like this. Also, we're probably only going to ever get one bite at the apple on this issue...and I would want to be damn sure its done correctly.

As to landowners posting public lands, already against the law. I ran into a case last year, on one of my hunts, where this was done.



With a few phone calls to the right people, that landowner was given 2 choices, take the signs down or get a ticket. Other than the 10 minutes it took to take a couple photo's and a couple calls, this didn't disrupt my hunt at all. I drove right around the sign like it wasn't there.

The items you listed have either already been dealt with, or in the case of corner crossing, something that would require a financial and time investment that 99% of sportsmen would not be willing to take on. I'm not tackling that 900 lb gorilla on my own...cant do it.

Buzz,

I mostly agree with you on this one. I do however, question your motives in pushing this along. Enough said about that.

I do feel that Wyoming has some bigger issues they could tackle. Lets look out for the little guy and the public land hunter. After all, we are the ones who cast the majority of the votes and buy the licenses that fund the game and fish department.
I'll give you two to ponder.

Wyoming's stupid, antiquated wilderness rule. This is federal land the vast majority of us hunters are being locked out of. Seems simple to me.

Hunter harassment and intimidation, by outfitters, guides and wranglers. How many people have a story about a bad or interesting run it with some of these guys? Maybe, there are some rules in place, but they don't seem to have any teeth. Is there any enforcement around existing rules of conduct? How about some language that holds them to a very high standard, with serious consequences. When this crap happens on public land, its unacceptable!

cur dog,

I'm not going to die on a hill fighting for that legislation, but I am going to support it based on the ethics and also another impact to the resource that doesn't need any more pressure put on it.

As for the little guy and public land hunter...do that all the time. Did you follow the Bonander land exchange last year? Pretty big win for the "little guy" don't you think? Stay tuned, we have another state land issue that a WYBHA board member is working on that, if we get our way, will open up significant access to State lands. I think we can get it done.

Agree with the wilderness guide law...here's the problem. Much like corner crossing, the average hunter, whether R or NR, really don't care about it. They like to howl at people like me to "do something" but I cant do things like that alone. Sure, I can probably find a legislator to pack legislation to repeal it...wont make it out of committee. This one would take time, money, effort, and a LOT of sportsmen to rally behind this. As in several thousand people showing up at the capitol, a huge media blitz, and hiring a damn good lobbyist. Like you and I both know, the money isn't there, hunters whine about a $3 fee increase, and asking them to take a day off work to attend a rally...none of those are happening. They'll take advantage of our AccessYes program, but a vast majority don't even contribute a single dollar as an example. Another example, they all have 2 weeks vacation to hunt, they all take the family to Disneyland, but they wont take a day to attend a rally, go the legislative session, many wont even write or call their representatives.

It takes motivation, commitment of time and money to see things like this change...I'm not afraid to take the lead on these issues, but again, I cant do it alone. I wont waste my time or resources unless people are serious about seeing something like the wilderness guide law change. Right now, I don't see the support...just a lot of hot-air and whining.

If you ever hear of, and can provide proof of outfitters intimidating the public...I'd be very interested in that. Tape it, record it, but there has to be proof. Hear-say doesn't cut it...without proof, it didn't happen.

BuzzH said:

Vikingsguy,

2. Corner crossing in Wyoming is not illegal, but not exactly legal either. Here is what I can tell you about it, since you seem like legal language is important to you:

a. There is State AG opinion, written by a now GF commissioner that states corner crossing with NO INTENT to hunt the surrounding private is not trespassing to hunt.
b. The GF has been instructed to NOT write tickets for corner crossing.
c. I know of one over-zealous warden that scratched a ticket for it last year, and it was promptly ripped up and done away with.
d. Judge Castor in Albany county heard a corner crossing case and found in favor of the person who crossed the corner, but unfortunately was not at a high enough level to set precedent.

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Very helpful info across the board - Thanks .

If they ever cite me, this one will go up the legal chain regardless of cost. I agree that legislative lobbying is a long and unlikely road given the vastly different level of financial interest of incumbent land owners vs. a few irritated hunters.

I started my journey towards western hunting as a result of boredom in MN hunting, but regarding trespass, MN has much more reasonable approach (up to date posting required incl. ID and contact info for land owner), ability to corner cross to hunt/hike, ability to pursue shot animal on public land onto private land to recover, ability to go onto private land to retrieve hunting dog. But in MN, the metro area voters and sportsman in general have much more political power than rural land owners. Seems like farmers have never had the political clout of ranchers. (I am a land owner in MN hunting country and do post my land, but have no problem with any of these laws - maybe with the on-going influx of new citizens from other states the mountain west will start to let up a little on the pandering to the ranchers.)

BuzzH said:

cur dog,


As for the little guy and public land hunter...do that all the time. Did you follow the Bonander land exchange last year? Pretty big win for the "little guy" don't you think? Stay tuned, we have another state land issue that a WYBHA board member is working on that, if we get our way, will open up significant access to State lands. I think we can get it done.

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You and I may quibble about ballistics and legalese (and a few other things I am sure), but there is no doubt you do much good for the public lands hunter -- Thanks for all of that!

cur dog said:

The Doyle type circus does create a great deal of nausea for me also. Is it ethical? Is it fair to the average hunter?

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IMO no it's not ethical. Ethics are personal so I guess it's fine for a lot of people. Fair to avg hunter to have them running people off of areas, blocking roads, etc.? Nope.

All this stuff has to be really tough to prosecute.

Buzz,

I understand your frustrations with the lack of attendance at sportsmen's rally's. Take me for example. By the time I bought a plane ticket, rented a car, stayed in a hotel and paid for meals, it would cost around $1500. I'm also self employed, so there is no paid time off here. It would be a huge commitment in time and finances for the average hunter to attend these.

The Wyoming wilderness rule excludes 99.5% of Americas hunters from these federal lands. I doubt many Wyoming hunters would dive in and fight against, because it benefits them. However, I think if the 99.5 % had this stupid rule explained to them, nearly all would cry BULLSHIT!

I'm curious if BHA has an opinion on this rule? It seems like they may be the perfect group to go after this at some point.

cur dog said:

I do feel that Wyoming has some bigger issues they could tackle. Lets look out for the little guy and the public land hunter. After all, we are the ones who cast the majority of the votes and buy the licenses that fund the game and fish department.

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Unregulated commercialization of wildlife (i.e. bounty hunters selling GPS coordinates) place additional pressure on a regulated resource (i.e. trophy mule deer permits in Western WY). By failing to regulate this commercialism, WYGF would be penalizing the average Joe who would see a decrease in permits and ever increasing point creep.

The wilderness rule is stupid. However, it's not likely to change, and it affects a pretty small percentage of public land in Wyoming. Agree to disagree on that one.

With respect to harassment and intimidation I'll say this. WAY too often, this stuff happens and it doesn't get reported until it's happy hour, then urban legends are born. If folks want to stop this behavior, they need to report it and be willing to testify against it. It's that simple. In my experience, most folks don't want to or won't go out of their way to document and report these incidences, or simply tell the outfitter to go %&&^ himself.

I was reading Founders Posts when he first made mention of his intentions of branching out his business by selling the numbers with pic of Trophy bucks he came across while scouting. I stewed on the idea not to long before the smell of the idea to me turned to stink. To some it's all about making money and the heck with the resource, he sees nothing at all wrong with his intentions. I'm glad there are those in Wy who disagree with him and are standing up help curb further monetization of our wildlife. Wyoming and it's folks have been Very good to me thru the years. After this years hunts, i'm really going to miss my trips there but i'd like to see future generations of hunters be able to go there and have good adventures for decent bucks on Public Property as i have.

Grizzly, Maybe i didn't understand you correctly but I think this is the first time that i've disagreed with you. Utahans, many of the Folks there, have been and are trying very hard to push their ways into other States. People notice, they resent that, i don't believe it's even debatable.

uncle sage said:

Grizzly, Maybe i didn't understand you correctly but I think this is the first time that i've disagreed with you. Utahans, many of the Folks there, have been and are trying very hard to push their ways into other States. People notice, they resent that, i don't believe it's even debatable.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I totally agree that a lot of the problems with the commercialization of hunting comes from Utah and their money tags. I also totally agree that the fight to take over public lands largely comes from Utah (and you probably know I'm fighting against the land grab with everything I've got, even though I live in Utah).

There were some posts with language such as "our" as if Wyoming residents had more ownership of a resource on federal land than a resident of Utah. My point was that federal land belongs to all of us equally, regardless of the license plate on our truck. It actually relates back to the public land discussion in that Utah residents shouldn't be able to privatize federal lands (at the expense of the resident of every other state) any more than Wyoming residents can claim ownership over federal lands within their border.

This discussion should remain on topic of the legalities/ethics of selling information without a permit... and not get into an argument over which state is on a license plate and if that has an actual reflection on the person behind the wheel and their abilities to use federal lands equally to the rest of us.

I'm just saying we should stick on topic and not stoop to labeling an individual by his address.

grizzly_ said:

I'm just saying we should stick on topic and not stoop to labeling an individual by his address.

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Fair enough, i don't like when i get bunched in with the others from my state. I'm very pleased to see you here at this site grizzly. Your body of dedicated work, Buzz's and many others too, speaks for itself.

i left MM on my own accord, chose to not have my name associated with founders way of doing things. His blatant commercialization of trophy bucks gps numbers with pic's included may well have been "the straw" for me toward leaving there after well over 10K posts.

cur dog said:

Buzz,

I understand your frustrations with the lack of attendance at sportsmen's rally's. Take me for example. By the time I bought a plane ticket, rented a car, stayed in a hotel and paid for meals, it would cost around $1500. I'm also self employed, so there is no paid time off here. It would be a huge commitment in time and finances for the average hunter to attend these.

The Wyoming wilderness rule excludes 99.5% of Americas hunters from these federal lands. I doubt many Wyoming hunters would dive in and fight against, because it benefits them. However, I think if the 99.5 % had this stupid rule explained to them, nearly all would cry BULLSHIT!

I'm curious if BHA has an opinion on this rule? It seems like they may be the perfect group to go after this at some point.

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Move to Wyoming if it's such a huge deal. It's obvious it's such a huge deal you probably can't live without hunting wilderness areas in WY, so move. Problem solved.

uncle sage said:

I'm very pleased to see you here at this site grizzly. Your body of dedicated work, Buzz's and many others too, speaks for itself.

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I'm guessing you were sageadvice?

(Thanks for the kind words and welcome aboard. You'll really like this site.... its very well run. I don't know how much longer I'll stick around MM. Somebody's gotta help Hawkeye when the SFW threads heat up )

grizzly_ said:

I'm guessing you were sageadvice?

(Thanks for the kind words and welcome aboard. You'll really like this site.... its very well run. I don't know how much longer I'll stick around MM. Somebody's gotta help Hawkeye when the SFW threads heat up )

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Yes i was. ol Bobcatbess gave me the new nickname sometime back, thought being a change of site was due, i'd use the new handle here. Compared to MM, this place is a breath of fresh air. You and Hawkeye were outnumbered badly there but by making clear common sense in orderly and professional fashion, you guys put up one heck of a fight. Won the arguments far as i was concerned. Wish i could have been more help but i added my $.02 in support often as felt safe from a all out gang pile. lol Thanks for the welcome. joey

Viking, don't sweat 'ol Buzzard breath, he has two posts,
1. Look at me and how flippin AWESOME I am... or
2. Look at you and aren't you just an idiot LOSER...

everything else is just cover fire for these two themes.

While well intentioned this is really just clearing up some loose ends, Michael Corleone demanding his tribute from usurpers of his territory.

Clarifications of terms as they are being mangled by some here, players in the game. (Not specific to WY)

Outfitter, has license and territory, can also guide, in addition to "employing" guides.

Guide, anyone who has a first aid/cpr card. With or without skills/knowledge, generally must work under the employment umbrella of an outfitter.

Client, the cash cow who makes it all work, without him everyone has to get a real job next Monday.

The MARK, who had the misfortune to grow too much bone on his head.

If you eliminate the criminals will do illegal stuff element from the situation (I know but for the sake of the argument do it)

You find the mark, determine which outfitter's territory he is in, work for him and do what you have been doing anyway. Now most of you think why would the outfitter hire the competition who is going to whack such a nice mark? Because it is a reverse payroll, the employee pays the employer for his acceptance of the behavior, he gets his "tribute" if the employer balks the amount of "tribute" is raised until the behavior becomes "perfectly fine"...

The amount of money isn't important, it is somebody else's, just a cost of doing business. If it goes too high there is a greater chance that the assumption of not being a criminal (see above) will be breached.

The "mark" still gets whacked, the client pays (perhaps a bit more as more palms are outstretched) but the godfather gets his cut and gives his blessing. Nobody gets hosed except for the mark and all the hunters, both paying clients of the outfitter and DIY guys who are on the periphery of "the game"

This is just a slightly different version of the 'gov tag" fiasco, many common elements, more importantly same players.


Now if any of you know the whereabouts of a 400" general bull I (because I am a highroller) have a 16 oz. package of Bar S all beef hotdogs I will cook up for you in exchange for "X" marks the spot. Me n my Chiclets (still naturally attached) will be happy to go chase him down, he HAS to break 400 and no I will not up it to Oscar Meyer.