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Rifle sight in.

BuzzH said:
As long as you know what your doing and why, and then verify with actual range time...do what you want as far as sight-in.
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Hard to get more truthful and succinct than this right here. I'm a user and advocate of MPBR zeroing, but I verify with range time. And, I'll admit that I've missed both rifle and archery shots by shooting high because of MPBR usage.

I don't have turrets, and I'm really not interested in shooting beyond 400 yards.
 
VikingsGuy said:
I think the underlying logic of the +/-3" (or +/-4") guidance, is that you are typically zeroing in near perfect conditions - off sandbags, exact known distance, high contrast target, typically low wind, low shooter anxiety/excitement, zero target moment - so if you are good at those numbers you have a built in buffer against all the realities of hunting. Just some "suspenders" if you will.
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The idea is to see how well the rifle can shoot, not you. If your looking for your best from a rifle you hav no idea how it shoot' your starting in a hole. For sighting in, we're only interested in finding out what the rifle can do.
 
If you're not zeroing under perfect conditions you are wasting your time. The rifle's true zero should be as precise as possible. A single three shot group is not a zero. Repeat that at least one more time and overlay the groups. Or, simply shoot a 5-6 shot group, and under perfect conditions.

Edit: Using MPBR with a target area of 18" (+/- 9" from POA) is a quick recipe for missing/wounding a lot of critters.
 
JLS said:
Hard to get more truthful and succinct than this right here. I'm a user and advocate of MPBR zeroing, but I verify with range time. And, I'll admit that I've missed both rifle and archery shots by shooting high because of MPBR usage.

I don't have turrets, and I'm really not interested in shooting beyond 400 yards.
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The idea that you shot high means a couple things. First your target for figuring PBR is to big. Next if you miss judged range and held over you could have shot over but MPBR did not fail. And you guy's are right, you have to verify the accuracy ant different ranges in that area. Just because my computer say's it's so doesn't mean it is! You have to shoot the ranges.
 
Don Fischer said:
The idea that you shot high means a couple things. First your target for figuring PBR is to big. Next if you miss judged range and held over you could have shot over but MPBR did not fail. And you guy's are right, you have to verify the accuracy ant different ranges in that area. Just because my computer say's it's so doesn't mean it is! You have to shoot the ranges.
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I didn't say MPBR failed, I estimated the range, had a brain fart and held high even though MPBR told me to center. Fortunately, the buck was more concerned with a doe than a loud bang and the second shot got him.

The archery shot was a mental block of being able to hold my sight pin on the tree branch I was shooting over, and not accounting for the arrow being over the POA.
 
Another big dead elephant in the room, that I've found the rotting evidence of with MPBR.

Say you hold dead center, everything goes right at that 150 yard mark. The animal is hit in the upper 1/3 of the body, high lung shot.

A vast majority of the blood stays IN the body cavity and that makes for a lot tougher tracking job and some get lost...seen it, several times.

I would much rather have a bullet hole in the center-lower 3rd than the upper 3rd, but that's just 38 years of experience talking.
 
I completely agree with you on aiming point. Once I figured out to hold in the ">" where the scapula and humerus meet, I started watching elk fall within feet of where they were hit.

Hits in the upper 1/3 of the cavity are bad news.
 
The nice thing about any shooting is you can aim at what ever you want. But if you envision a certain size target on an animal and shoot intending to hit that target then so long as you hit there you should be fine. That with any method of sighting in. This zero at 200 yds stuff I don't understand but it sound's like some system developed for long range shooter's. On my 6.5x06 I have a Nikon 4 1/2-14x scope. It has that ballistic drop reticule, I hate it! Tried to get them to change it out but they told my I had to go back to where I bought it. Long way off and that was the last one they had. I have used it shooting target's to 500yds and Didn't even stop to consider those circles, I simply adjusted the scope up the required min of angle's.
 
BuzzH said:
Another big dead elephant in the room, that I've found the rotting evidence of with MPBR.

Say you hold dead center, everything goes right at that 150 yard mark. The animal is hit in the upper 1/3 of the body, high lung shot.
Click to expand...

This may be the root of our debate. MPBR does not mean aim mindlessly at the center mass of the animal (which would mean a high edge gut shot if taken literally). It means aim the center of your crosshairs at the desired point of impact knowing that the +/-3" error is likely smaller than the error introduced by an average shooter trying to change their aim point for the perceived distance .
 
Just curious
Those of you that use MPBR what do you do for a shot on an animal at say 450?500?
 
VikingsGuy said:
This may be the root of our debate. MPBR does not mean aim mindlessly at the center mass of the animal (which would mean a high edge gut shot if taken literally). It means aim the center of your crosshairs at the desired point of impact knowing that the +/-3" error is likely smaller than the error introduced by an average shooter trying to change their aim point for the perceived distance .
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Nobody is saying anything about center mass. You cant aim your crosshairs (POA) and expect impact to be at that spot, when you're rifle is NOT sighted in at POA/POI intersection...no way. Like I've already said about 20 times, if you don't understand what you're doing, there will be problems of over-shooting and hitting animals high. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times.

Again, reality and theory on this rarely collide...the average hunter, unless they do a fair bit of shooting, aim at the center of the body (speaking horizontal center), wrongly assuming the POI is the same as POA, and yard the trigger...which by default is going to be put them above the center-line of the critter for most shots between 100-175. If you have your chit together, and understand what's going on, its not tough at all to adjust POA to where you want your bullet to actually hit. But its not easy to do when target shooting and its not easy to do at crunch time on a critter.

You will ALWAYS shoot best, no matter the range, when POA/POI intersect.

Example...300 yards, POA/POI intersection, 3 shots, 7 RM.

IMG_4362.JPG


Try that by having to hold over, or under by 3-4 inches...good luck with that.

Another 600 yards, 5 inch group, 5 shots...POA/POI intersection.

IMAG0022.jpg



6 shots, 450 yards, POA/POI intersection...try that with holdover.

IMAG0071.jpg


I've tried it all...100, 200, 300 yard zero...multiple crosshairs, holdover, and turrets...you name it.

The best situation is hold the MPBR crap...zero at 200-250 max, aim accordingly (low) at distances near the max POI above POA. Know what you're doing. Past that, I would limit range to no more than 350 using holdover. If you're going longer than that, you better think about turrets where POA/POI intersection can be easily arranged.

Last post for me...feel free to do what you want.
 
JLS said:
Get closer.
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I figured someone would say that. I guess everyone has their own opinion of what ranges they will shoot and that's a whole different discussion mainly because I've seen guys shooting 200 yards that their groups are so bad I wouldn't even hunt with.
Also there are many different types of terrain people hunt in and shot distances can vary greatly. My main hunting area is steep open canyons so longer shots are the norm.

I dial all my shots past 350 but do run a 250 yard zero.
 
cahunter805 said:
I figured someone would say that. I guess everyone has their own opinion of what ranges they will shoot and that's a whole different discussion mainly because I've seen guys shooting 200 yards that their groups are so bad I wouldn't even hunt with.
Also there are many different types of terrain people hunt in and shot distances can vary greatly. My main hunting area is steep open canyons so longer shots are the norm.

I dial all my shots past 350 but do run a 250 yard zero.
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I'm not trying to be a smartass. My rangefinder is only good to 400 yards and I don't have turrets on any of my guns, which dictates I have no business shooting beyond 400. I can't think of too many times getting closer (or not being able to) has cost me an animal.
 
JLS said:
I'm not trying to be a smartass. My rangefinder is only good to 400 yards and I don't have turrets on any of my guns, which dictates I have no business shooting beyond 400. I can't think of too many times getting closer (or not being able to) has cost me an animal.
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I wasn't trying to be a smartass. Sounds like you know your equipment and it's limits. I'm sure it works plenty well for you.
I guess you could in theory run a MPBR zero and dial after that. Like stated above I like to dial and have my POA/POI be the same spot for anything over 300.
 
BuzzH said:
Again, reality and theory on this rarely collide...the average hunter, unless they do a fair bit of shooting, aim at the center of the body (speaking horizontal center), wrongly assuming the POI is the same as POA, and yard the trigger...which by default is going to be put them above the center-line of the critter for most shots between 100-175. If you have your chit together, and understand what's going on, its not tough at all to adjust POA to where you want your bullet to actually hit. But its not easy to do when target shooting and its not easy to do at crunch time on a critter.

You will ALWAYS shoot best, no matter the range, when POA/POI intersect.
Click to expand...

Lots of truth this this.

Just for fun, when I get back from my archery hunt I will go out and shoot some 400+ yard groups with my 6.5 Man Bun. I feel I am a pretty good shot and spend a fair bit of time putting lead downrange. It should be good for all to see what a hunting rifle is really capable of with duplex crosshairs and holdover, for good or bad.
 
cahunter805 said:
I wasn't trying to be a smartass. Sounds like you know your equipment and it's limits. I'm sure it works plenty well for you.
I guess you could in theory run a MPBR zero and dial after that. Like stated above I like to dial and have my POA/POI be the same spot for anything over 300.
Click to expand...

No worries! I shot an elk last year at about 350 yards. That was the longest shot I've taken in about 8 years.

See my above post. I'll be the illustrative guinea pig.
 
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