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Rifle sight in.

NDMuley said:
I am going to zero it at 200. Just started at 100 to get some practice in. It's a factory load 145 ELD-X Hornady.[/QUOTE

Hand loads or mine anyways will shrink that to atleast half, with no vertical at all at 100 yards. I am a big fan of 168 smk's for accuracy. Just changed over to 178 grain eld-x's in my 308 (mainly because enough people convinced me it was unethical to shoot match bullets at animals)and as much as I hate to say it the eld-x's over 43.1 grains of varget (2670fps) is out performing the smk's remarkably. My son just qualified out to 1000yds on Sunday and was just pounding a 12 inch plate (zero to 1mph winds). I have worked up a lot of loads with different match bullets but a huge eld-x fan now. if your looking for a new bullet I would give them a try. That shooting is with a 14.5 lb rifle/ 30 inch Kreiger barrel and it's what Iam gong to take my first pronghorn with this fall.

GLock above is correct in my opinion. I would zero at whatever mpbr is for the animal your shooting. It gives more room for yardage mistakes (Sorta of).
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NDMuley said:
The bc of that bullet is .536 and it choreographed at 2915.
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BC of 536 MV 2915 Vital zone 8" MPBR 323 yds Max P.B. Zero 276 yds

100 yds +3.3" vel 2741

200 yds +3.5" vel 2573

250 yds +1.6" Vel 2491

300 yds -1.7" vel 2411

350 yds -6.6 " vel 2333

Keep in mind the zero is at 276 yds dead on hold is 323 yds . Yous should also shot t the different Ranges listed to see how close this will add up with your rifle. Data is out of my chronograph and has been scary right with my rifle's.
 
After reading all this I have a feeling there are some people out there that now think they are lost completely and haven't a clue how to zero a rifle.

Doesn't NDmuley have an adjustable turret type scope? If so he will likely just dial the distance after an initial 100 or 200yrd zero.

Thanks guys for all the input on your ideas of the way to go. But we probably will need some thinking and an hour or two to calculate what we thought we new to figure it out at this rate.

I'm a ballistic reticle kind of guy and zero the main cross hairs at 200 for Magnum's and 100 for smaller rifles I use to shoot 200yrd max with.

If a person practices with his rifle and knows his system , then it all works.

If you like the way you zero then I love it and am happy for you. What I do works for me and I hope your system works for you.

Lots of info for guys to ponder, but I prefer shooting to pondering.
 
BuzzH said:
Range verify and rock on...and stay within 300 and you'll be golden.

Assuming you understand MOA does not equal inches...2.1 MOA low is 6.6 inches low at 300.
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The key is the first 5 words of this response.

Knowing that a bullet should be X inches above center at 100 yards means nothing if you never take the time to verify it. More than once I've had a rifle shoot 2 inches high at 100 and then shoot nowhere near the center of the target at 200 even though it's "supposed" to.
I zero then at 200, and more than once have shot at 100 just to verify...and the POI at 100 hasn't changed much at all.

Whether you're dialing for distance or using MPBR, if you don't verify at distance you're just guessing beyond 100.
 
I would agree verifying is huge. The range I shoot at their marked 300 yard targets measure on my range finder at 277 yards. I know my rangefinder is within 2 to 3 yards at 200. My range cards are verified from my rangefinder that's what I will be hunting with and using to get yardages so that's what I want my dope figured for. On my rifle using jbm ballistic there drop Is off 6 to 7 inches between 300 and 600yd. Its off about 20 inches at 1000. So if your zeroed at 100 or 300 and just using ballistics from somewhere to get you to 600 that 6 or 7 inches on a 6 inch kill zone is pretty big.

When my son qualified out to 1000 Sunday. There was another guy trying to get out to 1000 and got hung up at 600 where they make you shoot out to 600 and then dial back down or reticle down to shoot 300 again. When he went back down to 300 he was 9 Moa high, needless to see he was extremely disappointed $1500 rifle and $350 scope, he dialed back up to 600 and missed the burm high. He was super depressed, felt sorry for him. Rifle was more then capable just lacking the optics. That's another reason to verify, to verify you equipment. I actually just but yardages on the inside of my scope cap because I have trouble trying to remember it, I need to see it I guess. On my rifle I also no if your using Jbm ballistics wind calls they are pretty far off from actuality. I think putting rounds down the rifle and trigger time is far more important then how or where you zero, I just use mpbr if you zero at 100 and know what your rifle is doing I think that would be fine also.
 
Wjesswheel said:
I would agree verifying is huge. The range I shoot at their marked 300 yard targets measure on my range finder at 277 yards. I know my rangefinder is within 2 to 3 yards at 200. My range cards are verified from my rangefinder that's what I will be hunting with and using to get yardages so that's what I want my dope figured for. On my rifle using jbm ballistic there drop Is off 6 to 7 inches between 300 and 600yd. Its off about 20 inches at 1000.
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Just a quick question WJess, did you chronograph that ammo and still found jbm that far off? Not disagreeing, just confirming my understanding of your info as I have not seen that big a difference with actual out of gun velocities.

In any event, as you point out, a hunter has to shot his/her gun, scope and ammo in the real world at the various relevant ranges to truly be ready for the field.
 
Yes it was chronogRaphed , I usually use a Caldwell, Sunday there happened to be a guy shooting beside my son that had a new magneto speed, they both were shooting at 1000 at a life sized steel groundhog spotting for each other 40x scopes. the guy was pretty impressed that there was not a lot vertical when my son was shooting he was missing left and right alittle but his vertical was not changing much at all. So he slapped ihis magneto speed on and they shot a few rounds. They were running maybe 10 fps faster then my Caldwell normally reads them. Probably because it hangs right off the barrel.I just had 200 federal 5x fired cases annealed for the first time. The deviation was the best reloads I have made, think Iam going to start annealing every other time from now on.

Both the 168 smk and 178 Eldx are off from what Jbm says. I always need less Moa at 600 out to 1000 then Jbm calculates. On the 168's is right at 1 Moa at 1000,The only explanation I have is it basically a bench gun with a 30 inch barrel and most the ballistics charts usually us 24 inch barrel. Not really sure why. I try to make really accurate reloads and spend a lot of time sorting and measuring. But Iam fairly new to reloading. Maybe some of the more experienced guys can chime in. I will tell you I record every shot out of the rifle and I shoot that rifle a lot and the data I have on that rifle is spot on. I kinda drifted off my original post of just being really impressed by the eld-x.

Be interested if you had any ideas on why though. Never really thought about it much just kinda of guessed it was off for everyone, thinking since it was free and you don't have to pay for it like quick loads.
 
Wjesswheel

What is your sight height? Also what direction were you shooting? In my experience the Caldwell chrony aren't the most accurate chrony.
BC of a bullet is a tricky game and sometimes needs to be tweaked to match your exact drops.
 
cahunter805 said:
Wjesswheel

What is your sight height? Also what direction were you shooting? In my experience the Caldwell chrony aren't the most accurate chrony.
BC of a bullet is a tricky game and sometimes needs to be tweaked to match your exact drops.
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2.5 and west yeah the Caldwell is not the greatest. Hoping to get a a better one for Christmas from the wife. There's a YouTube video of a guy "verifying " an 6.5 Eldx in his opinion it's verified. It wasn't Litz just some random guy.
 
Wjesswheel said:
Be interested if you had any ideas on why though. Never really thought about it much just kinda of guessed it was off for everyone, thinking since it was free and you don't have to pay for it like quick loads.
Click to expand...

Definitely seems like something is off, here are a few things to consider:

- Confirm you have the correct scope height in JBM
- Confirm you adjusted the temperature, elevation and humidity in JBM and aren't using the defaults
- Have a velocity out of barrel you trust
- Confirm you are using the ballistics model in JBM that best matches the type of bullet you are using. Most commonly G1 bc is reported by manufacturer, but for some high bc and boat tail style bullets they will report the G7 bc. Sometimes they report both. Typically not a big deal because if you run the G1 bc through the G1 model its not hugely different than G7 bc through G7 model, but if you run G7 BC through G1 model you definitely will be off (and vice versa).
- It could be your sight picture and parallax effect - this can change your POA subtly as distance goes beyond factory parallax set (typically 100 yds) if you do not have your eye centered. My dad had this problem - due to very narrowed field of view he could not see the black/gray shadows around the scope edges that would signal lack of centering - a side focus scope and more careful attention to cheek weld fixed for him. But I would be surprised if this accounted for more than an inch or two off at 400 yds.
- If you are using a scope with zoom and you are shooting the different distances at different zooms it could be a mechanical problem with your scope.
 
cahunter805 said:
Viking

I agree that you should be +/- 3" of your line of sight but I guess there are many factors that determine the actual POI and that may be more complex and the basic hunter needs to worry about.
MPBR is an option which many hunters can use and be accurate if they understand it and setup their rifle correctly.
Just for friendly discussion As to the OP rifle. To accurately setup his MPBR would you just shoot a group at 100 and set it 2.6" high measured of the center of a 3,5,10 shot group? Or would you set a target at 291 yards and zero it?

In the end more important than MBPR or what zero yardage is that many hunters don't take the time to test their actual rifle and ammo. I've seen so many guys at the range the week before season saying oh the box says it's 3000 fps and about 1.5" high at 100.
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Using MPBR, the max distance above and below line of sight is determined by the size of the target. Mine have been sighted in at a 6" target. Lot of people prefer 8" target, put the highest and lowest point above and below line of sight at 4", That is fine. Many years ago the outdoor writer's claimed you should sight in 3 1/2" high at 100 yds. They claimed you could hold dead on to any reasonable range, pre MPBR and that, as it turns out, is what MPBR is all about.
 
Don Fischer said:
Many years ago the outdoor writer's claimed you should sight in 3 1/2" high at 100 yds. They claimed you could hold dead on to any reasonable range, pre MPBR and that, as it turns out, is what MPBR is all about.
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They still say this.
However, if you don't verify, then you're only as good as that 100 yard target. That's the part that most casual hunters/shooters just don't get.
 
BuzzH said:
VikingsGuy,

Here's where the MBPR theory falls on its arse...in reality.

When you shoot a 3-5 shot group at say 100, how often are all your shots exactly 2.6 inches high? Is there usually 1 or 2 that may be 3.0 or maybe even 3.1? Some are going to be above 2.6, some below...right? Correlate that to the highest point in the trajectory...now we're up to 5+ inches high.

Take an average ND mule deer, for example if they're comparable to the Eastern Montana mule deer chest is 20-24 inches deep...total vital area may be closer to 18-20

You have a buck at 170 yards...you aim lets say 2 inches above the center-line of the body because you aint perfect, you forgot your sliderule, or maybe you're excited. The cold bore shot you're about to shoot is just a pinch higher than the theoretical 2.6 perfection that also aint reality, that now makes your POI 7+ inches above POA. You're handicapped 7" before you blink an eye and that's doing everything to that point what you think is perfect. If you're lucky, you may spine the buck. If you aren't, you'll shoot right over it.

There's the reality of what I've seen happen dozens and dozens of times in the field, by guys sighting their rifles in 2.5-3 inches high at 100 and following the advice of just "aim for the center and shoot" at ranges near the top of the trajectory. A place where we tend to get a good number of shot opportunities.

If you're going to use MPBR, you need to have your chit together...and many don't.

You're also wrong about no other sighting in method reducing the problems associated with MPBR...the closer POA/POI is to the same place, no matter the distance, the more room you have for error, inherent to the platform, or the nut behind the trigger, and that's just a fact.

There's a damn good reason why I have my 13 year old nephews (new hunter) rifle sighted in the way it is...and isn't anywhere near MPBR. He doesn't need to relearn the same lessons that I already have. And he wont.

But, like I said...use whatever gives you a warm fuzzy.
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You seem to have a misunderstand of sighting in at all! You don't worry much about the single shot so long as it falls withing the group. That is why we shoot group's to zero our rifle's and not individual shot's. With any method you choose to sight in with, Each bullet will fall into place depending on the load and shooter skill! To the best of my knowledge no one has fired a three of five shot group into one hole. If you have a 1 1/2" rifle and you fire at a 8" target, Your odds of hitting the target go way up! I had a problem with a 243 a few years ago. Had the rifle sighted in for 6" target, very accurate rifle BTW, and had a shot at a coyote about 100 +/- yds but all I could see was it's head, I had to compensate using hold under! Needless to say, I missed. Went home and re-sighted in for a 3" target. Now I could have held on the head and hit it. What was lost was MPBR! Increasing and decreasing the target size effect's MPBR. The way I've heard it described is that the target is 8" think about shooting down an 8" steel pipe. The bullet never touch's the top or the bottom of the pipe until MPBR is reached.

When I did my 6.5x06 I used a 6" target. Wanted to try shooting at 500 yds, sand bags and table. There was no need to hold over, I simple re-adjusted the sight for 500 yds and went with it. Wind got me a bit but elevation was close to perfect! And Center of the group was about three inch's right of the aiming point.

On my 243 I kept a card taped to the right side of the stock showing MPBR at a 3" target and showing drop beyond max range.

Your rifle's accuracy is determined by shooting a group and measuring either C to C of the two widest points. Or measure outside to outside won't make a lot of difference.
 
Dr. Vette said:
They still say this.
However, if you don't verify, then you're only as good as that 100 yard target. That's the part that most casual hunters/shooters just don't get.
Click to expand...

I agree. You need to verify the actual distances to the targets (at my range both the 100 and 200 are at least 5% off), verify the velocity of your bullet out of your rifle (for factory ammo typically 5%-7% off), and confirm that there are not other real world shortcomings in your rifle, your scope, your ammo and you the shooter.

The issue is not the veracity of the ballistics, as the laws of physics don't lie, but there is much more than just the physics to allow a hunter to hit a 6" diameter target 237 yards downhill at 15 degrees with a 15 mph 65 degree crosswind. However, under controlled conditions, if you are not getting the results predicted by the physics it is an indicator that something else in the system is wrong or misunderstood. better to figure out now than in the field later.
 
VikingsGuy said:
Generally, one would go for 2.6" high at 100, but really depends on what distances your range provides. Mine gives me a 109yd and a 207 yd option - guess the tape measures where broken the day they did this install :) so I calculate to those distances. As for how many, I typically use 3 shots for big game and 5 for varmints. But this is true for both MPBR and 200yd zeros. Either way you have inherrent error in every shot so we estimate using multiple samples to decide where it is actually aimed/hitting. But again, same question exists for any zeroing strategy..

I agree zeroing choices are not the biggest problem. Not practicing shots away from the bench in the postures you will shooting from in the field, taking shots at distances you aren't prepared for, relying on factory velocity for drop tables, not verifying ammo in your gun, etc. -- I assume we can both agree these are definite shortcomings.
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Good though. 109 and 207yds. By doing that he effectively flattened the trajectory to 209 yds. And that is nothing more than the size of target he chose to use. Obviously at the range get's longer, he'd have to raise the sight's in order to make the hit. Good though!
 
cahunter805 said:
Viking

I agree that you should be +/- 3" of your line of sight but I guess there are many factors that determine the actual POI and that may be more complex and the basic hunter needs to worry about.
MPBR is an option which many hunters can use and be accurate if they understand it and setup their rifle correctly.
Just for friendly discussion As to the OP rifle. To accurately setup his MPBR would you just shoot a group at 100 and set it 2.6" high measured of the center of a 3,5,10 shot group? Or would you set a target at 291 yards and zero it?

In the end more important than MBPR or what zero yardage is that many hunters don't take the time to test their actual rifle and ammo. I've seen so many guys at the range the week before season saying oh the box says it's 3000 fps and about 1.5" high at 100.
Click to expand...

I don't believe you need to be +/- 3" of your line of sight. Your shooting at a target that's about 18" and it would be possible to sight in 9" MPBR. The flight of the bullet will be within that 9" depending on the range between muzzle and MPBR. The old timer's back in the 60's and 70's I don't recall ever mentioning MPBG, they just sight your rifle 3" high at 100yds and you were good to go. Back then we didn't have this explosion of long range shooter's and because of that, 3" high worked very well.
 
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Don Fischer said:
I don't believe you need to be +/- 3" of your line of sight. Your shooting at a target that's about 18" and it would be possible to sight in 9" MPBR. The flight of the bullet will be within that 19" depending on the range between muzzle and MPBR. The old timer's back in the 60's and 70's I don't recall ever mentioning MPBG, they just sight your rifle 3" high at 100yds and you were good to go. Back then we didn't have this explosion of long range shooter's and because of that, 3" high worked very well.
Click to expand...

I think the underlying logic of the +/-3" (or +/-4") guidance, is that you are typically zeroing in near perfect conditions - off sandbags, exact known distance, high contrast target, typically low wind, low shooter anxiety/excitement, zero target moment - so if you are good at those numbers you have a built in buffer against all the realities of hunting. Just some "suspenders" if you will.
 
I think a lot of people are really confused about how MPBR works. Take a deer with a vital zone about 18". Put the deer at your MPBR for 8" target. Now superimpose an 8" target on it, side of the deer covering vitals, at the deer and try to keep all your shot's in the 8" target. Start the deer at your MPBR and see if you can hit in the 8" target. right on the deer, of course you can, now start backing away from the deer and every time you stop aim at the center of this 8" target and see if you can keep the bullet's inside the 8". Do that all the way back to your bench and at every range going back you'll hit the 8" circle if you can shoot. Further more during the entire excerise the bullet will never be more than 4' high or low from that 8" target! The trajectory of your bullet will never be more than 4" high or 4" low until the bullet has traveled beyond MPBR Your have the target in your head. You always shoot at the center of that target. And yes, you need to verify the numbers you got are right by shooting at different ranges to the MPBR, which is where the bullet will be 4" low but still in the target.
 
Don Fischer said:
I think a lot of people are really confused about how MPBR works. Take a deer with a vital zone about 18". Put the deer at your MPBR for 8" target. Now superimpose an 8" target on it, side of the deer covering vitals, at the deer and try to keep all your shot's in the 8" target. Start the deer at your MPBR and see if you can hit in the 8" target. right on the deer, of course you can, now start backing away from the deer and every time you stop aim at the center of this 8" target and see if you can keep the bullet's inside the 8". Do that all the way back to your bench and at every range going back you'll hit the 8" circle if you can shoot. Further more during the entire excerise the bullet will never be more than 4' high or low from that 8" target! The trajectory of your bullet will never be more than 4" high or 4" low until the bullet has traveled beyond MPBR Your have the target in your head. You always shoot at the center of that target. And yes, you need to verify the numbers you got are right by shooting at different ranges to the MPBR, which is where the bullet will be 4" low but still in the target.
Click to expand...

A mature buck will measure 18" from top to bottom. The vital zone is much smaller than 18".

I think the MPBR method looks compelling on paper but lacks practical application in the field, especially in the era of laser rangefinders and BDC reticles or turrets.
 
As long as you know what your doing and why, and then verify with actual range time...do what you want as far as sight-in.

Trouble is many listen to some "old timer" that also doesn't understand WTF he's doing, doesn't range verify, and dusts of the '06 a week before the season starts.

If you believe that even 50% of the hunting public understands what they're doing, couple things:

1. Go to a rifle range about 2 weeks before opening day.

2. Listen while hunting, how often you hear someone shoot ONCE.

All I can say, its a damn good thing there is a lot of room for error on an animal...because judging by what I see at the range, see for shot placement in the field, and the amount of lead slinging that goes on...most would come home with a tag in their pockets. Not to mention the critters that would be wounded and lost.
 
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