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Utah land management and fire

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mtnrunner260

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Here's an entertaining video of Mike Noels thoughts on the Brian Head fire.

https://youtu.be/0DpBq_hLgOQ

Sure there is some truth to what he says but man could he be a bigger tool in the way he delivers it.

I have to say if the land had been managed his way there wouldn't have been any cabins lost. Because no one would want to build there.

But that unit is going to be a great general deer unit because of the fire.
 
Perhaps it would have been better not to sell all those lots in the National Forests of UT. I remember going up to Panguich and Navaho lake in the 60's and 70's and cabins were almost non-existent. Now they are everywhere and have ruined the area.
If you don't want the threat of having your cabin burn in a forest fire don't build your cabin in the forest. Logging out all the trees makes perfect sense.
 
Observations and considerations.

Macroeconomics. Is there demand for the bark infested timber at current lumber prices in a mass market? There are many variables in cost, including transportation, current price, current and projected demand for lumber that is bark beetle infested (it often turns blue due to fungus shortly after death) and others. Logging at 10,000' and hundreds of miles from large markets probably doesn't create a profitable situation for any business that could reduce the fuel load. Local artisans may take the odd few thousand board feet, and it is highly unlikely a large scale operation could generate profit. Beetle damaged trees have a shelf life for commercial use and after an amount of time that varies from months to years depending upon location, they're only good for firewood.

Micro. The fire was started by a private citizen on private land. This goes straight to the heart of Gr8bawana's comment on where to build your cabin.

Elk. The burn area is a beautiful one with a decent population of elk. High likelihood of a long-term benefit. Very sorry for all the loss.
 
Well the problems gonna be fixed now with the new administration, there will never be another fire, never!, he said so himself..
 
He had me at "rock lickers".

I'm sure there is more to it. I agree it would of needed to economical to remove the trees but fire is the natural process before there was loggers. I've seen a lot of burned tree stumps in the past too. Mother nature will always win in the end, no matter what we try to do stop her.
 
Mike Noel is a clueless windbag. He calls out everyone else for "not doing anything". I don't see him packing a pulaski, and running his mouth isn't helping.

I don't feel one bit sorry for anyone that lost a "cabin" in that fire. Create defensible space, buy insurance, or move to town.
 
dukes_daddy said:
Hateful!
Click to expand...

Nope...just doesn't make any sense to me building a "cabin" in an area that's surrounded by a heavy fuel load.

It also makes no sense for firefighters to risk their lives to save stupid people's cabins.

Like I said, buy insurance, have defensible space or move to town....just don't cry on my shoulder that you got "burned" by your own lack of planning.

Same old story...over and over and over again. Gets old.
 
BuzzH said:
Nope...just doesn't make any sense to me building a "cabin" in an area that's surrounded by a heavy fuel load.

It also makes no sense for firefighters to risk their lives to save stupid people's cabins.

Like I said, buy insurance, have defensible space or move to town....just don't cry on my shoulder that you got "burned" by your own lack of planning.

Same old story...over and over and over again. Gets old.
Click to expand...

Yep. No different than building in a flood plain then complaining when your house washes away. Then, you can blame the government for not installing enough rip rap.
 
guys like dukes_daddy want the big bad government out of their lives until the chit hits the fan...

Then its blame the government and demand the government come rescue me, rebuild my cabin, replant the forest, take care of the mud-slides, clean up my water, etc. etc. etc.

Like I say...some old story, time and time again.
 
BuzzH said:
guys like dukes_daddy want the big bad government out of their lives until the chit hits the fan...

Then its blame the government and demand the government come rescue me, rebuild my cabin, replant the forest, take care of the mud-slides, clean up my water, etc. etc. etc.

Like I say...some old story, time and time again.
Click to expand...

Yup government is bad until it benefits them personally in some way.
I think if private landowners were told they would be responsible for protecting their own property and cabins from forest fire and not expecting the big bad government to do it for them most would not build cabins there.
 
I am from Utah and my In Laws have a cabin at Panguitch Lake. Their cabin got lucky and did not burn too the ground! But I hear a lot of locals complain about how the Forest Service never let anybody log out of Dixie National Forest because of "tree huggers" and "Rock Lickers" (quoting Utah's Politicians) organizations threaten to sue the Forest Service! My hypothetical question is, If Utah got there wish of having a public land transfer (which I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH) do they think they would be exempt from such lawsuits? I personally feel whoever manages the land someone will piss and moan about how it was managed.
 
http://www.sltrib.com/home/5462842-155/mike-noels-inflammatory-screed-on-wildfires

A little perspective goes a long ways. There have been many lawsuits regarding logging on this particular Forest. However, most, if not all have failed. Yet, the market for the lumber never seemed to unfold.

According to Forest Service data, there has not been a single appeal of a fuels-reduction project in three years.

There have been just five projects challenged since 2010, and one of those was challenged by the Garfield County Commission. In every instance, the appeal was either rejected or withdrawn.

Active management is good, but Mike Noel is a thorn in the side of public lands and only wants to cut their budget and authority in one breath, and complain that they aren't doing their jobs in the next.
 
BuzzH said:
guys like dukes_daddy want the big bad government out of their lives until the chit hits the fan...

Then its blame the government and demand the government come rescue me, rebuild my cabin, replant the forest, take care of the mud-slides, clean up my water, etc. etc. etc.

Like I say...some old story, time and time again.
Click to expand...

Buzz, There you go again putting words in peoples mouths. All I said is "hateful" which your response to people losing homes was. I do expect government employees (you) to show respect and normal human compassion to the people you work for; American taxpayers! Troy Rushton
 
Beetles wiped out 95% of the old growth Englemann spruce 15 years ago. There are major clear cut blocks all over the Markagunt Plateau (cedar mtn.) that were done during the Kennedy Admin in the 60's. At 9-10,000 ft elevations it will take a century to get back to the large aspen groves that are so magnificent in the fall. Its obvious that there were major fires all over the plateau in the 19th century. The settlers only homesteaded parcels with water, then grazed their cattle on the public lands that where adjacent to the homesteads so as to avoid property taxes. This is the stuff that is being sold for cabin lots. There are also areas around Navajo and Panguich Lake that have cabins on USFS property on long term leases. Its to bad to loose a cabin to a fire, but the cabin people had an asset not available to the average Joe. Its a S.O.B. but that's how its worked out. Stupid really. GJ
 
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dukes_daddy said:
Buzz, There you go again putting words in peoples mouths. All I said is "hateful" which your response to people losing homes was. I do expect government employees (you) to show respect and normal human compassion to the people you work for; American taxpayers! Troy Rushton
Click to expand...

Lets see...you want me to have compassion for people that make the decision/choice to carve a flat spot out of the forest, do nothing for defensible space, have firewood stacked under their porches, live in a semi-desert environment in the Interior West...then feel sorry for them when a wildfire burns their "cabin" down? There's just slightly more than a metric chit ton of information out there about the urban/wildland interface, fuel loads, defensible space...yada yada. Not my problem when people ignore science.

Do you feel sorry for me when the wind in Laramie rips the roof off my house? Or when a hailstorm a couple years ago beat the chit out it? You shouldn't, I choose to live here and carry insurance on my home...I assume the risk and don't ask for anyone's compassion. I sure as hell don't blame the government for wind, or hail, or floods, or fire...seems you do.

I feel sorry for people that have bad things happen to them that they cant control...those whining about wildfire burning their "cabins" down can control or mitigate the risks. They choose not to, then people like you and Mike Noel start the blame game.

The people I do feel sorry for are those that die fighting fire to save someone's second home in the mountains. Then, those same people who's homes they were trying to save, start whining about the bad job the Land Management Agencies are doing before the funerals are even over.

That's hateful.
 
Buzz is right on. There is a high level of personal responsibility and risk that comes with living in beautiful places in the west.

It's such a waste to watch highly trained wildland firefighters reduced to raking pine needles in the yards of McMansions just because the owners couldn't take care of their chit.
 
BuzzH said:
Lets see...you want me to have compassion for people that make the decision/choice to carve a flat spot out of the forest, do nothing for defensible space, have firewood stacked under their porches, live in a semi-desert environment in the Interior West...then feel sorry for them when a wildfire burns their "cabin" down? There's just slightly more than a metric chit ton of information out there about the urban/wildland interface, fuel loads, defensible space...yada yada. Not my problem when people ignore science.

Do you feel sorry for me when the wind in Laramie rips the roof off my house? Or when a hailstorm a couple years ago beat the chit out it? You shouldn't, I choose to live here and carry insurance on my home...I assume the risk and don't ask for anyone's compassion. I sure as hell don't blame the government for wind, or hail, or floods, or fire...seems you do.

I feel sorry for people that have bad things happen to them that they cant control...those whining about wildfire burning their "cabins" down can control or mitigate the risks. They choose not to, then people like you and Mike Noel start the blame game.

The people I do feel sorry for are those that die fighting fire to save someone's second home in the mountains. Then, those same people who's homes they were trying to save, start whining about the bad job the Land Management Agencies are doing before the funerals are even over.

That's hateful.
Click to expand...

Buzz, I never blamed the government for anything on this post and god bless the wildland fire crews who respond. I will judge hateful bureaucrats who lack respect for people you serve and want to whine the government gets no respect! Give to get.
 
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