CA Mule Deer Tag Reduction - severe die off

Hi All,
The number of tags for some of the premium zones (X9A, X12, X9B, and X9C) will be significantly reduced this year due to the severe winter die off. Many deer died of starvation and were easy pickings for mountain lions, coyotes, and bobcats in the deep snow. I am not the main biologist monitoring the deer; however, just anecdotally, while doing my field work I ran into 18 dead deer. Only one was killed by a lion. All of the deer were in poor body condition. A healthy animals bone marrow should be chalky and white. These deer had red, jelly-like marrow. This may seem like a really bad situation. In the short term, it is bad. However, the drought has severely impacted the deer habitat and the high number of deer have over grazed the landscape. This die off will allow the habitat to recover some and the deer herd will be better off in the long term. The biologists in the region will continue to monitor the deer populations with GPS collars and helicopter surveys. As the deer population rises they should increase the deer tags, let's hope.

- TheHunterBiologist

Thank you for your input, it's always great to hear from biologists in California. I too noticed the lower recommendations in the southern X zones and figured it was a combination of winter and drought. I've been planning what I want to do for tags this year and may opt for northern X zones or more than likely some combination of an A, B and D3-5 tags.

Is there any deer in CA? Predators killed most of the deer in CA. I was hunting three days in one area where I usually was able to harvest a buck but all I saw was few tracks and one doe with fawn. That is why I enjoy out of state hunting now, longer drive but I have great time and bring some meat home. We can not control mother nature but PREDATORS NEED TO BE MANAGED!

BigGameDIY said:

Is there any deer in CA? Predators killed most of the deer in CA. I was hunting three days in one area where I usually was able to harvest a buck but all I saw was few tracks and one doe with fawn. That is why I enjoy out of state hunting now, longer drive but I have great time and bring some meat home. We can not control mother nature but PREDATORS NEED TO BE MANAGED!

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Are there any studies to show that it was predators? What area? Could it have anything to do with forest overgrowth do to a lack of logging and fires? Expansion of developments in winter range? I know we have predator issues, but we, as hunters can't even fill our bear quota. And the current and historical depredation take of mountain lions was higher than the hunter take. I'm not trying to be snide, but most of the hunters I talk to in CA don't want to discuss any of the other issues affecting our deer population.

Jr
I agree with you! Forest fires are a good thing for wildlife and growth but usually are put out quickly. Lions need to be regulated and the season needs to be reinstated like it used to be before this ridiculous law. Also the reason we can't fill the bear quota is from the also ridiculous law that outlaws the use of dogs. Bears are hard on fawns just like coyotes are.

I don't really trust studies, their result depends who is doing them and who is paying for them. I know the fact that the area I was hunting in was holding good amount of deer and now there is only few deer. I talked to many old hunters and they all say the same, cats is a big problem in CA. I don't think that bears are doing much damage to the deer population, they just occasionally might kill deer, their diet is more like berries, grass, etc. I like hunting bears, especially with my bow, we usually take 2-3 bears per year between four hunters in family.

Sorry to hear about the die off.
I loved hunting the central Sierra's on both sides & the coast.
From 68' to 09', & I usually filled 2 tags. Changed big time from one of the best in the west overall to whatever it is now.
I really saw the change after the cat laws & the population exploded.
X9a went from a pick & choose great bucks, to my last hunt in 09' & only seeing a handful of decent bucks that were not 3000' higher or across a gorge. Even the Bishop Boys were stumped that year.

cahunter805 said:

Jr
Also the reason we can't fill the bear quota is from the also ridiculous law that outlaws the use of dogs.

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That just feels like a cop out. If folks were getting after deer, we'd hit that quota.

high number of deer have over grazed the landscape. This die off will allow the habitat to recover some and the deer herd will be better off in the long term.

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This statement is really interesting to me, it seems we didn't offer enough X zone tags in the past as the Department was being conservative.

jryoung said:

Are there any studies to show that it was predators? What area? Could it have anything to do with forest overgrowth do to a lack of logging and fires? Expansion of developments in winter range? I know we have predator issues, but we, as hunters can't even fill our bear quota. And the current and historical depredation take of mountain lions was higher than the hunter take. I'm not trying to be snide, but most of the hunters I talk to in CA don't want to discuss any of the other issues affecting our deer population.

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Yes, there were two recent studies of collared deer in the Mendocino Forest that showed high mortality from bears and lions. I believe the conclusion was lions killed deer that were then taken by bears, then recorded as bear kill. Coyotes had a lower,yet significant effect. I know one study was by UC Davis.

I don't disagree with your other statements, but predators are a piece of the puzzle

My wife and I have seen a couple of deer kills and the past couple of months that look like Mt lion kills, and there has been a lot of Mt lion sightings in these area's.

Deer over grazed....Ha! Gimme a break. There aren't enough deer to overgraze in the first place. Coyotes and bears eatin fawns and cats eatin adults plus the drought. We haven't seen too many deer ever

Sucks to hear about the lowered quota. Was about to be in position to guarantee I draw a tag next year. But I can wait, rather have the deer herd bounce back than for my own selfish reasons. But how the hell are the deer supposed to bounce back? Yeah the range conditions will most definitely improve after all the precipitation we've received since last fall, but they got bears coming out of their ears up there! Every time I go to convict lake the marina guys tell me about all the Bears around camp, bears getting into the boats. Was 15 feet from hitting one with my truck last summer. Who knows what the exact picture is on Lions, but I'de imagine they are at all time highs since we can't hunt them for god knows how many decades now... What can a guy do, besides break the law and SSS?

Holster Craft said:

My wife and I have seen a couple of deer kills and the past couple of months that look like Mt lion kills, and there has been a lot of Mt lion sightings in these area's.

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What does a Mt lion kill look like?

What does a big CA muley look like?

Dinkshooter said:

What does a big CA muley look like?

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It's amazing what the Ca deer population was at one time.


One thing I notice with mule deer populations. We are seeing similar declines across multiple states with different management plans, habitats, predator densities, etc. The most common factor, how forest lands are being managed compared to how they were 50 years ago when low and behold, all the same states had peak mule deer populations.

I got a deer or two in Ca every year, nearly all were over burns.


Deer Overgrazed the habitat, here's a idea.. create more habitat... burn it, log it... shoot a cat or two while your at it

I cannot speak to the other regions' deer populations or habitat conditions. However, one of the longest running studies done on an ungulate species continues in the Eastern Sierra Nevada (Region 6, north). The CDFW Region 6 webpage highlights numerous scientific publications that paint a clear picture that habitat is the limiting factor. This is the common trend seen across the west for declining mule deer populations. The main issue is lose of winter range and degradation of habitat. Although, It's never one thing causing a decline, especially once the populations get small. Road kill and predation impact populations. Thankfully we do not have any disease issues in my area. Predator management certainly can be an effective tool to improve game species. The reality of it is, those that are pro lion hunting cannot get their act together in California to make a change. It's going to take more than complaining on the forum to make a change. Interesting fact, more lions are killed now for depredation (i.e., protection of property) than were originally harvested. Organizations like the Mountain Lion Foundation are evening going so far as try to change depredation policy. Check out the latest on AB-8. While you're at it, check out the Mountain Lion Foundation's claim and bias research that says hunters are not the main group funding conservation (http://mountainlion.org/featurearticleguestwhopaysforwildlife.asp). Try not to let your blood boil while reading that.

In the Eastern Sierra Nevada region, habitat improvement projects have been done and more are planned. The state has purchased multiple pieces of property in my region that protect winter range. They flood irrigate and have planted bitter brush, a mule deer's most valued winter forage in my area. Further, pinyon forests have been cut back and thinned to make more forage. More pinyon pine removal projects are in the works. There is a project underway to evaluate how and where highway crossings should be built on Hwy 395. All of these project take an eternity to get approved and when they do it takes a long time to see the reward. I do not expect everyone to know all this information. I live and breathe it every day. I have dedicated my life to it and get paid crap. Hunters need to discuss these issues and combine knowledge, weed out facts from fiction. Anecdotes are important to get you started, but hard data is necessary to make a change. I get a lot of information from locals that are on the ground as much, if not more than me. I have to drive a desk too. I always pay attention when a local tells me what they notice in the field.

Bears certainly can have an impact on fawn survival. One of the studies that came out of this area documented 70% of fawn mortality was from bear predation. The bear population has gone up significantly since that study was completed. Another study out of northern california and a couple other states found black bears were pushing mountain lions of their kills at a high rate. This caused mountain lions to have to kill more deer. Things are a lot more complicated than most people realize. Every deer population can have a varying degree of these issues and others. If any one of you is interested in bear hunting in my area send me a private message. I'll gladly point you in the right direction. That's my job. I'm doing what I can by collecting data on bears to preserve the privilege we have to hunt bears. Bears are great to have in the ecosystem, but it would sure be nice to have some more management.

.......and yet the Golden State STILL allows two bucks to be taken each year. THAT, my friends is the first thing that needs to change if you really want to improve deer hunting in CA.

BOHNTR said:

.......and yet the Golden State STILL allows two bucks to be taken each year. THAT, my friends is the first thing that needs to change if you really want to improve deer hunting in CA.

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Would love to give up one of my 2 deer tags for a mountain lion tag or being able to bait a bear.