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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by neffa3 View Post
    Disagree, I just help WDFW do a survey in the Goat Rocks of WA, which has orders of magnitude more hikers (PCT goes right down the spine), the population was significantly higher than they had estimated to doing very well.
    http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-...-good-guesses/

    Came across this Washington article when I googled the plight of mountain goats Neffa. Crazy stuff you guy's are ingesting!
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  2. #27
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    Goats are susceptible to the same diseases that are having a negative impact on wild sheep populations. I do not know if that is what is causing the decline, but many of Montana's goat herds are carriers of the pathogens that result in pneumonia outbreaks.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by theat View Post
    Goats are susceptible to the same diseases that are having a negative impact on wild sheep populations. I do not know if that is what is causing the decline, but many of Montana's goat herds are carriers of the pathogens that result in pneumonia outbreaks.
    This is what I was thinking.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/ar...ntaingoats.htm

    John Vore hinted at snowmobiles being the problem in the Sapphires in this 2008 article. Goats in the Bitterroots were doing ok at that time. Goats in the Bob were not. Down dramatically by 2000.
    I think Brown has it right, Vore's theory, like him, is a big pile of dog chit. That guy should NOT be allowed to manage even field mice, let alone a big-game animal...unless you wanted to eliminate field mice, then he's your man.

    I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine, Mr. Garner, from Missoula and had a good talk with him about goats in the Sapphires.

    He drew tags in 1973, 1974, and 1984 in the sapphires. He told me that in 73 and 74 the FWP issued 5 tags each year and he saw 30-40 goats in each of those 2 years, and killed one in 1974 that was 14.5 years old. He said in 1984, which he thought was the last year they issued tags in the Sapphires (still issuing 5 tags), he saw 4 goats, 2 nannies, a kid, and one small billy. He told me he hunted at least 15 days in 1984, and "covered that M-fer from one end to the other"...and knowing how he still hikes, I can imagine that in 1984, he left very few stones unturned. So, in a span of 10 years, it seems not changing anything in harvest, finally took a toll...again, no proactive management by the FWP, even clear back in the 70's and 80's.

    I remember the first several years I applied for a goat tag on the West side of the Bitterroot, there were 75 tags issued good from HWY 12 to the West fork. IIRC, they split the West Fork into a different unit. I also recall that a few years, prior to splitting the units by drainage, they decreased it to 50 for a year or maybe 2. I know several of the West side drainages were completely closed and hardly any tags were issued by the late 80's. My younger brother drew one of the two goat tags issued in Kootenai Creek in 1987 and he killed the only goat we saw, a 4.5 year old billy. I quit applying for a goat tag in the 'roots in 1990.

    Again, its over-harvest, conifer encroachment, habitat changes, no management, and predation...all have taken their toll on goats.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  5. #30

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    75 permits on the westside was correct. This year I think there will be 2 permits. Paul, do you think that was the correct number to sustain a goat population?
    Last edited by tjones; 03-20-2017 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Check the elevation differences and the amount of available habitat in the A/B, Crazies compared to the 'root, bob, cabinets (much narrower band of alpine habitat, and shrinking more all the time).

    Try looking at old imagery from the 40's and 50's and compare it to now...intuitively obvious, even to the most casual of observers...
    Where do I find these images? I would be very interested>

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-...-good-guesses/

    Came across this Washington article when I googled the plight of mountain goats Neffa. Crazy stuff you guy's are ingesting!
    https://goatalliance.org/goat-rocks-...project-recap/
    Elitist Hunter

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  8. #33

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    And if you could hunt them the OP is probably the best in the lower 48. https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2016/1185/ofr20161185.pdf
    Elitist Hunter

    "Never let schooling [work] get in the way of your education" - Mark Twain

  9. #34
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    Good stuff there Neffa!
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by theat View Post
    Goats are susceptible to the same diseases that are having a negative impact on wild sheep populations. I do not know if that is what is causing the decline, but many of Montana's goat herds are carriers of the pathogens that result in pneumonia outbreaks.
    Interesting. Utah has a couple of long term herds; Lone Peak and Timpanogos that are declining. Overall the goats in Utah are thriving.

    It would be great if the wildlife research folks could develop inoculation against these diseases. Utah lost a new herd of bighorns on the Stansbury Mtns due to disease.

  11. #36
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    I haven't seen a lot of data regarding disease causing population level effects in mountain goats. Anyone have any references?

    I know they do carry some of the pathogens that hammer bighorns, but from what I've read they don't seem to experience the same catastrophic mortality in most cases.

    Has anyone read Dr. Bruce Smith's book "Life on the Rocks"? He's probably better versed in mountain goats than most, and he discusses some of the conservation challenges impacting mountain goats. Spoiler alert: alpine cold weather adapted ungulates do not fare well against climate change. Might be interesting to those concerned about mountain goat conservation.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunting Wife View Post
    I haven't seen a lot of data regarding disease causing population level effects in mountain goats. Anyone have any references?

    I know they do carry some of the pathogens that hammer bighorns, but from what I've read they don't seem to experience the same catastrophic mortality in most cases.

    Has anyone read Dr. Bruce Smith's book "Life on the Rocks"? He's probably better versed in mountain goats than most, and he discusses some of the conservation challenges impacting mountain goats. Spoiler alert: alpine cold weather adapted ungulates do not fare well against climate change. Might be interesting to those concerned about mountain goat conservation.


    The theory of evolution clashes strongly with the religion of climate hysteria.




    Anybody know how the goat population is doing in the Highwoods? It always fascinate me that they existed there.
    Not sure if they're still around, but when I was a kid we used to fish from a boat on Holter. Goats all over the edge. Both places are low elevation and weird to see goats in.
    Last edited by MTGomer; 03-20-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunting Wife View Post
    I haven't seen a lot of data regarding disease causing population level effects in mountain goats. Anyone have any references?
    The primary case I can recall was in the East Humboldt and Ruby Mountains in NV. A quick search found the following documents. You might be able to find more with a more thorough search.

    http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/nd...PERI-WOLFF.pdf

    http://programme.exordo.com/wda2016/...esentation/66/
    Every day I'm hustlin'....

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oak View Post
    The primary case I can recall was in the East Humboldt and Ruby Mountains in NV. A quick search found the following documents. You might be able to find more with a more thorough search.

    http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/nd...PERI-WOLFF.pdf

    http://programme.exordo.com/wda2016/...esentation/66/
    Thanks for the links Oak. Will read up on it when I get some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    The theory of evolution clashes strongly with the religion of climate hysteria.
    Spoken like someone who understands the science of neither.

    Not saying it's right or wrong....simply mentioned it for those who might be interested in reading a fairly well respected biologist's perspective. You know, in case anyone wanted to exercise their critical thinking skills.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunting Wife View Post
    I haven't seen a lot of data regarding disease causing population level effects in mountain goats. Anyone have any references?

    I know they do carry some of the pathogens that hammer bighorns, but from what I've read they don't seem to experience the same catastrophic mortality in most cases.

    Has anyone read Dr. Bruce Smith's book "Life on the Rocks"? He's probably better versed in mountain goats than most, and he discusses some of the conservation challenges impacting mountain goats. Spoiler alert: alpine cold weather adapted ungulates do not fare well against climate change. Might be interesting to those concerned about mountain goat conservation.
    http://principia-scientific.org/norw...olar-activity/

    Is this science good news for mountain goats?
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  16. #41
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    Use google much Paul? Ever fact check anything, or do you just fall hook, line, and sinker?

    This where you get your "news"??? PT Barnum was right...

    Laffin'....

    Principia Scientific International (PSI) is an organization based in the United Kingdom which promotes fringe views and material to claim that carbon dioxide is not a greenhouse gas. PSI was formed in 2010 around the time they published their first book, titled Slaying the Sky Dragon: Death of the Greenhouse Gas Theory. [1]
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  17. #42
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    Don't let the goats get vaccines or near a wind turbine...

    According to Pauls reliable sources, the goats will really be in trouble.

    From Principia "scientific"

    In 2013, PSI also began to promote unfounded claims that wind turbines make people sick and that childhood vaccines were “one of the largest most evil lies in history.” [9]
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  18. #43
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    Crazy Mountains had an unlimited number of tags in the 90s to try to get in front of an out of control population expansion, which still ended up with a big die off. Hunting was ended and the population rebounded quickly. How many tags were issued last year? Quite a few, and if they don't get the population in control pretty soon it could very well result in another die off. Low numbers or high, seems FWP gets the blame either way.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Use google much Paul? Ever fact check anything, or do you just fall hook, line, and sinker?

    This where you get your "news"??? PT Barnum was right...

    Laffin'....

    Principia Scientific International (PSI) is an organization based in the United Kingdom which promotes fringe views and material to claim that carbon dioxide is not a greenhouse gas. PSI was formed in 2010 around the time they published their first book, titled Slaying the Sky Dragon: Death of the Greenhouse Gas Theory. [1]
    Typical Buzz. Ignore the science, attack the source........

    "For example, in 2016 alone, there were at least 132 peer-reviewed scientific papers documenting a significant solar influence on climate. Among them there were 18 papers that directly connected centennial-scale periods of low solar activity (the Little Ice Age) with cooler climates, and periods of high solar activity (the Medieval Warm Period and the Modern Warm Period [20th Century]) with high solar activity levels. Another 10 papers warned of an impending solar minimum and concomitant cooling period in the coming decades."

    Solar activity plays a big hand in the world's climate? Crazy stuff right there!
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHornRam View Post
    Crazy Mountains had an unlimited number of tags in the 90s to try to get in front of an out of control population expansion, which still ended up with a big die off. Hunting was ended and the population rebounded quickly. How many tags were issued last year? Quite a few, and if they don't get the population in control pretty soon it could very well result in another die off. Low numbers or high, seems FWP gets the blame either way.
    Correct, because they manage reactively instead of proactively, just like I showed you in the sapphire example. Keep issuing 5 tags for opportunity, when one of the hardest hunters in the State see's 4 goats in 15 (at least) days of hunting. Rather than make adjustments along the way, lets just go scorched earth for 12 years on the goats, change nothing, then shut it down when we have 4 left. According to the article you posted, 34 years later, there's still only 10 in the entire Sapphire range. That's a pretty major f-up in management, that a herd hasn't recovered from a lack of management over 30 years later.

    Same with the Bitterroot, keep pounding the goats in there with 75 tags for years and years, don't manage by drainage, just use that "macro-management" approach and let hunters "self regulate". Then scratch your ass as to "why aren't there any goats here anymore". I know, lets blame it on solar flares and wind turbines.

    Worked well for goats, and now you're seeing the exact same macro-management style tanking pronghorn, elk, and deer...business as usual with the FWP.

    You should come to Wyoming and hunt sometime...I'll show you what management looks like...something lacking in Montana.
    Last edited by BuzzH; 03-21-2017 at 10:53 AM.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzH View Post
    Correct, because they manage reactively instead of proactively, just like I showed you in the sapphire example. Keep issuing 5 tags for opportunity, when one of the hardest hunters in the State see's 4 goats in 15 (at least) days of hunting. Rather than make adjustments along the way, lets just go scorched earth for 12 years on the goats, change nothing, then shut it down when we have 4 left. According to the article you posted, 34 years later, there's still only 10 in the entire Sapphire range. That's a pretty major f-up in management, that a herd hasn't recovered from a lack of management over 30 years later.

    Same with the Bitterroot, keep pounding the goats in there with 75 tags for years and years, don't manage by drainage, just use that "macro-management" approach and let hunters "self regulate". Then scratch your ass as to "why aren't there any goats here anymore". I know, lets blame it on solar flares and wind turbines.

    Worked well for goats, and now you're seeing the exact same macro-management style tanking pronghorn, elk, and deer...business as usual with the FWP.

    You should come to Wyoming and hunt sometime...I'll show you what management looks like...something lacking in Montana.
    Does MT need SFW to encourage MT F&G to implement better management? Is the great WY management you speak of the major $$$ increase and finger to NR hunters?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukes_daddy View Post
    Does MT need SFW to encourage MT F&G to implement better management? Is the great WY management you speak of the major $$$ increase and finger to NR hunters?
    SFW is a plague...I wouldn't wish that on any other State, not even Utah.

    As to the "major $$$" increase, Wyoming did not increase fees on NR or R in 8 years. They also offer reduced price antlerless permits, reduced price youth permits, that did not change in price with this last "major $$$ increase".

    In the last 3 years, the number of elk applicants has increased over 2k+. Leftover tags typically sell out in minutes.

    Wyoming and its proper management have created a very good product, quality demands higher fees...and IMO, Wyoming is a good value for the quality as well as quantity of available wildlife. Good chit sells itself.

    In the time I've lived in Wyoming, Montana quality and quantity of wildlife has been on a continual decline. I used to worry about drawing a NR big-game combo and beat 60% odds multiple years. The combo tag was right around $650 when I moved to WY in 2000. I believe since then, the price has nearly doubled, quality is in the tank, and you can get the combo tag over the counter. Bad chit doesn't sell...

    Montana, which used to be highly sought after, is now a back up, last resort plan for many NR hunters. A place to go where you can hunt if you absolutely don't draw anywhere else.

    Sad really, but that's to be expected when a State doubles prices for poorer quality and less game and no management.

    Even my cut rate NR OTC deer combo at $306 is of questionable value. I could add an elk tag for another $200 and IMO, the elk tag is NOT worth the additional $200 anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. If not for the fact my family still lives and hunts in MT, I would very likely not even buy a deer tag.

    Finally, the only Sportsmen's group in Wyoming, to my knowledge, that opposed this latest "fee increase" in Wyoming is the group that I chair...for the record.
    "...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana." -Norman Maclean

    "They were still so young they hadn't learned to count the odds and to sense they might owe the universe a tragedy"
    -Norman Maclean

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    The theory of evolution clashes strongly with the religion of climate hysteria.




    Anybody know how the goat population is doing in the Highwoods? It always fascinate me that they existed there.
    Not sure if they're still around, but when I was a kid we used to fish from a boat on Holter. Goats all over the edge. Both places are low elevation and weird to see goats in.
    They're still in the gates on both sides of the Missouri.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTGomer View Post
    The theory of evolution clashes strongly with the religion of climate hysteria.




    Anybody know how the goat population is doing in the Highwoods? It always fascinate me that they existed there.
    Not sure if they're still around, but when I was a kid we used to fish from a boat on Holter. Goats all over the edge. Both places are low elevation and weird to see goats in.
    Animals evolve to long-term changes, not to more rapid changes in climate. I'm not exactly sure how the theories clash at all.....

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwoods Labs View Post
    Animals evolve to long-term changes, not to more rapid changes in climate. I'm not exactly sure how the theories clash at all.....

    Northwoods, do you buy into this science?
    http://www.iflscience.com/environmen...ues-into-2017/
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

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