Cwd

It is interesting watching the hysteria as it sweeps across the country, AR just joined the chicken little crowd...

History is important, remember who done give it to ya... thank the CO dow every chance you get...

Three main concerns,

1. does it transmit to humans? This is the big one, and 50 years of data would say no, as there is no statistical data of CJD (or any similar central nervous variant) along the corridor of infection AKA the Platte River.

a.Are game farms culpable?? Absofriggenlutely. although more like a leap-frog instead of slow progression which is what it would be otherwise, end result would not vary much.

2. Can it be contained? No unless you can get everything to about 1200 degrees.

3. Does it decimate the deer herd? No until the hysteria brings on severe lead poisoning.


The political first step is always eradication of all deer then the studies show a lack of older age class animals??? WOW who could have predicted that?

Deer whose brains are mush with drool down to the ground have higher mortality from outside trauma like planes trains and automobiles?? Another shocker.


Now locally the hysteria hit and our beloved DOW offered a solution, eradication (sell more tags) and to keep people out there buying them a testing program (more money of course to pay for the test) Now my lil princess bought in hook line and sinker and made me test so she could be assured eternal life...

You paid and put your head in a pile of rotten heads, the contract clearly stated that if the head was rotten no test could be conducted... A couple months later the rotten heads were in the road kill pile, ironically right in the heart of some heavily used winter range and available to be scattered by any number of predators... no containment whatsoever. A couple months later you got a carefully worded letter that your head did not test positive. Follow up investigating could not confirm that it was ever tested (can you say rotten head) only that it did not test positive. (side note: if positive they have to give you FOR FREE another replacement tag) Of course by law you had to butcher and treat all meat as edible during the 2-3 months of testing time, (felony wanton waste) if positive then you could melt down all your butchering utensils and grinders etc to achieve the 1200 degree threshold.

One final anecdotal piece of evidence, any epidemic of taxidermists walking in circles with drool to the ground (more than is normal anyway) Beware brain spinal and eye tissue, is the official line... what the hell do taxidermists handle all day long?? They handle older age class animals spines, brains, and eyes.

Conclusive?? Of course not, what the hell in life is? But if you are worried I fully support you not hunting deer especially anywhere near where I do!

Should you use some common sense in selecting which animal to shoot, how to butcher, what to leave on the kill site and when to feed the dog?? YEP...

I have a lease here in Missouri that is just a few miles from a game farm that was considered to be the source for CWD here. That was several years back when it was 1st found. The conservation dept. started doing out of season culling and the 1st year they took approx 125 deer, 2nd 150ish I think and then 3rd 650ish I believe. That was from an approx 5 mile radius I was told from the source. My lease is about 5 1/2 miles so while they did not cull from our property it was just down the road. I could be a little off on my numbers but I do know this. The deer numbers have significantly gone down hill since they started and so have our harvest numbers. That was about 5 years or so back I think and I know they are still culling out of season this year. I think its more devastating what the Conservation Dept is doing to the herd than the actual disease. I understand what they are dealing with but is it really the answer since it is impossible to eradicate or cure CWD? Just my opinion....

I'm sure some of your listen to the Wired 2 Hunt podcast, and Mark had Kip Adams from QDMA on this week and he gave his opinion on the disease.

While I think CWD can be a bit politicized and overblown, it is no joke. When the western states bring up that the disease has been out there, I always wonder what the population densities are, because I frankly don't know how they compare to here in WI. I think that is a big reason we got hit so hard. The deer population was at an all-time high in the early 2000s and I am sure that affected the spread in the southern part of the state.

Ironically, AR may go back to 90s era management to help with CWD (lower densities, kill mostly bucks, no antler restrictions). QDM will be dead in AR.

As an aside, infectious prions surely are not a new thing, just newly discovered. Is there evidence of prion activity in the fossil record? Could it be that many extinctions attributed to other factors were actually the result of prions?

Perhaps it's part of natural selection and genetically resistant cervids will survive at a rate high enough to avoid widespread population collapse. I hope so.

beginnerhunter said:

Ironically, AR may go back to 90s era management to help with CWD (lower densities, kill mostly bucks, no antler restrictions). QDM will be dead in AR.

As an aside, infectious prions surely are not a new thing, just newly discovered. Is there evidence of prion activity in the fossil record? Could it be that many extinctions attributed to other factors were actually the result of prions?

Perhaps it's part of natural selection and genetically resistant cervids will survive at a rate high enough to avoid widespread population collapse. I hope so.

Click to expand...

I asked the Iowa DNR Deer Biologist that exact question about two weeks ago when they announced CWD had been found in a wild deer in a new location in Iowa. When CWD first arose in the wild deer herd in Iowa it was found in Allamakee County, a county that borders the Mississippi River and Wisconsin where CWD is present. The first wild positive was about 1 mile from the River. We know that deer cross the river back and forth very frequently both in winter time on the ice and during the summer by swimming. The Biologists surmised that deer had crossed the river with CWD and infected the landscape. They thought it would be isolated, but this year it has begun to blow up in Allamakee with 10 positive tests this year alone. When CWD was found further inland, about a 25 mile jump, it made me think exactly what you were surmising, so I asked him if it was possible the Prions had always been in the soil and now we are just becoming aware of it and it had possibly been affecting deer this whole time, we just hadn't noticed it until people started paying such close attention to there deer herds several years back. The Biologist seemed kind of irritated that I would even think that, and quickly and emphatically said absolutely not.

I suppose I will keep trying to give information, for those who are interested. Some things from a few previous posts...

Proteins generally don't fossilize very well. Scientists have detected protein fragments inside a few other fossils, but it is highly unlikely that any protein, let alone an abnormal one, would survive and still be recognizable. Maybe you could find something in an animal that fell in a bog or something so that soft tissue was preserved. At this time there's no way of knowing whether prions were present prehistorically or not.

Testing data illustrate the geographic spread of CWD very well. There are lots of places that tested negative for years, then went positive, then tested positive at a higher and higher frequency over time. This pattern has been observed over and over again. Nothing about this supports the hypothesis that CWD is just naturally sitting there in the soil not causing disease all over North America.

The purpose of culling is to decrease densities of susceptible individuals around the outbreak area. It's kind of a basic strategy of disease management - limit contact between infected and susceptible individuals. A lot of people complain about culling, but I'm not exactly sure how having "Fish & Game" put their head in the sand and pretend nothing is happening would be preferable. Yeah, it sucks but the alternative as far as we know is that we eventually won't have any deer or elk left. I would prefer they try something, if nothing else to buy some time to try to figure out a long term solution.

I was at a wildlife professionals conference last week and heard a talk on a CWD study that has been ongoing. It was honestly the most gloomy data I've seen to date on CWD, and I've seen a lot. The work has not been published yet so I can't share much, but the take away from the talk was that a herd of elk that used to be chronically overpopulated has had recruitment fall below anything previously recorded, and had juvenile mortality near the highest ever recorded for an elk herd. CWD prevalence and mortality from all causes (except hunting) continue to increase, and so far every way they analyze the data, the herd will not persist even if hunting is completely removed from the equation. If that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is. I'll keep an eye out for the publication.

Thanks, Keep us informed. Is Terry Kreeger at that conference, or Fred Lindzey?

Gellar said:

I asked the Iowa DNR Deer Biologist that exact question about two weeks ago when they announced CWD had been found in a wild deer in a new location in Iowa. When CWD first arose in the wild deer herd in Iowa it was found in Allamakee County, a county that borders the Mississippi River and Wisconsin where CWD is present. The first wild positive was about 1 mile from the River. We know that deer cross the river back and forth very frequently both in winter time on the ice and during the summer by swimming. The Biologists surmised that deer had crossed the river with CWD and infected the landscape. They thought it would be isolated, but this year it has begun to blow up in Allamakee with 10 positive tests this year alone. When CWD was found further inland, about a 25 mile jump, it made me think exactly what you were surmising, so I asked him if it was possible the Prions had always been in the soil and now we are just becoming aware of it and it had possibly been affecting deer this whole time, we just hadn't noticed it until people started paying such close attention to there deer herds several years back. The Biologist seemed kind of irritated that I would even think that, and quickly and emphatically said absolutely not.

Click to expand...

I think wildlife biologists are concerned that CWD will be dismissed if people think it doesn't need addressing. Or he's reacting to the fact that game farms have used that argument to take the heat off themselves. I sincerely hope CWD has only modest effects, but I do want State Wildlife agencies to experiment with management techniques (although eradication is misguided IMO).

wytex said:

Is Terry Kreeger at that conference, or Fred Lindzey?

Click to expand...

No on both counts. It is not generally a disease-heavy agenda at this particular meeting.

Hunting Wife said:

I suppose I will keep trying to give information, for those who are interested. Some things from a few previous posts...

Proteins generally don't fossilize very well. Scientists have detected protein fragments inside a few other fossils, but it is highly unlikely that any protein, let alone an abnormal one, would survive and still be recognizable. Maybe you could find something in an animal that fell in a bog or something so that soft tissue was preserved. At this time there's no way of knowing whether prions were present prehistorically or not.

Testing data illustrate the geographic spread of CWD very well. There are lots of places that tested negative for years, then went positive, then tested positive at a higher and higher frequency over time. This pattern has been observed over and over again. Nothing about this supports the hypothesis that CWD is just naturally sitting there in the soil not causing disease all over North America.

The purpose of culling is to decrease densities of susceptible individuals around the outbreak area. It's kind of a basic strategy of disease management - limit contact between infected and susceptible individuals. A lot of people complain about culling, but I'm not exactly sure how having "Fish & Game" put their head in the sand and pretend nothing is happening would be preferable. Yeah, it sucks but the alternative as far as we know is that we eventually won't have any deer or elk left. I would prefer they try something, if nothing else to buy some time to try to figure out a long term solution.

I was at a wildlife professionals conference last week and heard a talk on a CWD study that has been ongoing. It was honestly the most gloomy data I've seen to date on CWD, and I've seen a lot. The work has not been published yet so I can't share much, but the take away from the talk was that a herd of elk that used to be chronically overpopulated has had recruitment fall below anything previously recorded, and had juvenile mortality near the highest ever recorded for an elk herd. CWD prevalence and mortality from all causes (except hunting) continue to increase, and so far every way they analyze the data, the herd will not persist even if hunting is completely removed from the equation. If that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is. I'll keep an eye out for the publication.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the information. I realize you probably won't find fossilized prions, what I really meant to ask was if there was evidence of the type of extinction shown in CWD models that could corroborate.

I understand CWD prions don't sit in the soil without being deposited there within a couple of years by a cervid. My theory was that prions spontaneously arise in animal brains and become endemic due to propogation and transmission among densely populated animal groups. Does it not seem strange that mammals would exist for millions of years and then in the 20th century "poof" we suddenly have prions??? So perhaps prions have been responsible for some extinctions in the past and will do so again in the future. Your comments seem to support that.

But I agree definitely not in favor of State Wildlife agencies just putting their head in the sand!

I live in South East Minnesota where we have a cwd outbreak and our deer season has been extended to lower deer numbers. The one problem I see with this is that now the deer have been chased around more then ever making them come into contact with more deer and gather into larger groups then normal. What i dont understand is if it lives in the prions in the ground and in plant life how will it ever go away. I feel like ito one of those things that if you look hard enough anywhere you will find it.

beginnerhunter said:

Thank you for the information. I realize you probably won't find fossilized prions, what I really meant to ask was if there was evidence of the type of extinction shown in CWD models that could corroborate.

I understand CWD prions don't sit in the soil without being deposited there within a couple of years by a cervid. My theory was that prions spontaneously arise in animal brains and become endemic due to propogation and transmission among densely populated animal groups. Does it not seem strange that mammals would exist for millions of years and then in the 20th century "poof" we suddenly have prions??? So perhaps prions have been responsible for some extinctions in the past and will do so again in the future. Your comments seem to support that.

But I agree definitely not in favor of State Wildlife agencies just putting their head in the sand!

Click to expand...

I see what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree with you. We do know that prions are capable of arising spontaneously in some circumstances. And we do know they've been around for at least centuries. Scrapie, which is the domestic sheep version, has been known since the early 1700s. But I think what we are seeing today with these infectious prion diseases likely has more to do with the rise of domestication and animal husbandry practices altering the way prions circulate within populations. I do not think it is a coincidence that every animal prion disease we know about seems to have arisen in captive animals first. Here's an article with an interesting overview of prion diseases.
https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-8-493

I doubt we will ever have evidence to either support or refute prion disease role in pre-modern extinctions. But I think somehow, we are responsible for CWD being what it is today.

Hunting Wife said:

I see what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree with you. We do know that prions are capable of arising spontaneously in some circumstances. And we do know they've been around for at least centuries. Scrapie, which is the domestic sheep version, has been known since the early 1700s. But I think what we are seeing today with these infectious prion diseases likely has more to do with the rise of domestication and animal husbandry practices altering the way prions circulate within populations. I do not think it is a coincidence that every animal prion disease we know about seems to have arisen in captive animals first. Here's an article with an interesting overview of prion diseases.
https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-8-493

I doubt we will ever have evidence to either support or refute prion disease role in pre-modern extinctions. But I think somehow, we are responsible for CWD being what it is today.

Click to expand...

I can see how the practice of congregating deer unnaturally would allow naturally-forming prions to increase their "load" available to the other deer around them, leading to an endemic. But the way it is spreading among wild game would indicate that these particular prions are extremely effective even in a non-captive scenario. Are you saying humans accidentally created a super-prion?

Another question (because you are very kind to answer me). Do you think that CWD prions arise de novo at these game farms? In other words, did they bring a CWD positive deer to their facility that infected the herd or do you think it occurs spontaneously as a result of the unnatural congregating? Is that why we are seeing it pop up in Europe or was it carried there from the US?

Thanks again for your responses.

Thanks for response. Found out we know almost all of the guys that authored that paper. I'm curious about the elk herd you mentioned. Guess we'll wait for publication to find out where it is.

I'm wondering if it has been here in the environment all along and now with testing is showing up more prevalent.

We are getting a little out of my depth on these questions. I'm simply a biologist with a little knowledge of disease. The origins of CWD are not something I've spent a ton of time on.

I have no idea if humans "created" CWD. I think the initial prion probably arose spontaneously. That is true of nearly all diseases, so I don't know why this would be different. You had a little agent that floated around and didn't cause any trouble, until just the right mutations came along and then there was trouble. It is well documented that game farm cases are being trasmitted between animals and spread via animal transport. What is the mechanism by which a random protein misfolding becomes highly infectious? There has been speculation that the prions are just a symptom and that we are missing some yet to be discovered infectious virus or plasmid that causes prion formation. I think it's the infectious part that we just don't understand. I hope those folks who are much smarter than I working on the research might one day be able to find answers to all these, and more.

Hunting Wife, do you think this is a problen that is a bigger threat to the west? What I mean by that, is here in Va, the disease rarely manifest itself because very few deer reach an age that will allow the disease to show symptoms. My county is in the cwd watch area and I am told that every year a few harvsted deer test positive. The only testing is done on the first and second saturday of rifle season. I personally think its a larger issue out west where there are older classes of animals in the population.

Ehd scares me much more for its drastic short term affect on the herd, though I am not trying to down play significance.

VAspeedgoat said:

Hunting Wife, do you think this is a problen that is a bigger threat to the west? What I mean by that, is here in Va, the disease rarely manifest itself because very few deer reach an age that will allow the disease to show symptoms. My county is in the cwd watch area and I am told that every year a few harvsted deer test positive. The only testing is done on the first and second saturday of rifle season. I personally think its a larger issue out west where there are older classes of animals in the population.

Ehd scares me much more for its drastic short term affect on the herd, though I am not trying to down play significance.

Click to expand...

We don't have good enough data to fully understand the population level effects of CWD. That's what we are just starting to see coming from some of these studies. I don't think we are at a point yet where we can then tease out how any population effects might differ between east and west. It would not surprise me if we find there are differences, and I have no evidence to dispute your logic.

EHD concerns me less because it doesn't impact future recruitment. A healthy population will bounce back (biologically. I'm not going to debate how the states may or may not respond to these events). What concerns me more would be a scenario in which CWD does harm recruitment and survival in the population (seems to be true), in which case those populations may no longer have the capacity to bounce back from those more acute challenges, like bad winters or EHD.

Hunting Wife said:

We don't have good enough data to fully understand the population level effects of CWD. That's what we are just starting to see coming from some of these studies. I don't think we are at a point yet where we can then tease out how any population effects might differ between east and west. It would not surprise me if we find there are differences, and I have no evidence to dispute your logic.

EHD concerns me less because it doesn't impact future recruitment. A healthy population will bounce back (biologically. I'm not going to debate how the states may or may not respond to these events). What concerns me more would be a scenario in which CWD does harm recruitment and survival in the population (seems to be true), in which case those populations may no longer have the capacity to bounce back from those more acute challenges, like bad winters or EHD.

Click to expand...

I had never thought about recruitment. I guess I had only thought about it from the standpoint of "we had an ehd outbreak and now I am seeing less deer this year." Simple minded for sure but I doubt I'm alone. Thanks for the good info and opinion. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Hopefully, good bad or indifferent, we can find some conclusive answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buyiCU8TlwQ

I feel like there is a better approach than killing all the older age class. Older bucks are more reclusive and loners. The problem is when deer congregate and does do that the most in their family groups. This is a very good video on CWD. I do believe we need to monitor and manage it the best as possible yet I also feel there is somewhat of a hysteria over it.