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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fin View Post
    Rob, I understand you strongly feel this way, with regards to the point I bolded and underlined. I've been able to find no evidence to support that claim. If you have evidence, not just your statement or opinion, that reducing feral horses will result in increased cattle grazing and thereby provide no net range improvement, I would like to see it, as I am getting more and more interested in this discussion and I would like to see such evidence, as seeing that evidence would surely influence where my views end up on this topic.

    The reason cattlemen are suing is because the grazing privileges they have paid for are getting impacted by feral horses numbers being many-fold beyond what was promised in the Wild Horse and Burro Act and associated Federal legislation . None of the lawsuits I have read are to expand grazing beyond historical grazing privileges that come with their allotments.

    As a general comment to the thread, when I put myself in the shoes of these grazing permitees, I'm not sure what choice to they have other than litigation. They have paid for grazing privileges that are being usurped by feral species. Advocates for that feral species have used the political process to negatively impact them and it is being done in violation of Federal Laws. In addition to their annual permit costs, many have paid for the underlying asset value these grazing allotments have as an marketable asset. Their asset values are being impacted. Seems reasonable that any of us would file a court case to protect our property values and our livelihood under a similar situation.

    Peculiar how so many of these groups want to sue the BLM or USFS if they don't follow even minor regulations, all in the supposed name of wildlife and habitat. Yet, when an agency is directed by politicians to manage in the resource in this very damaging way, as is happening over huge landscapes with feral horses, none of these litigation-happy groups are stepping up to sue the BLM to get feral horses under control. Reason being, there is no money or notoriety in it.

    Right now, the group forcing the BLM's hand is the feral horse advocates. They have been effective in using politics and litigation to hijack the BLM management of feral horses and burros. If I was King for a day, I would have attorneys heading down to Federal Court to balance the scales against this stupidity and let the professionals at the BLM do their job. Congress is a bunch of lazy ass clowns who would rather see our lands get mismanaged, and eventually sold, than to do their job and direct agencies with policy and funding to manage these lands.

    For those wanting more info, the Appropriate Management Level (AML) as defined by Federal statute, decided by Congress when they passed these Federal laws, was set at 26,715 feral horses and burros to be tolerated on the range, even though all knew they were a non-native species. We are currently at 67,000+ of these feral animals, with populations doubling every five years. That does not count the tens of thousands of others now in capture facilities that cost $50,000 per horse, over its life. In capture facilities, they are enclosed and gelded, hardly making them a "wild" animal at that time. And we spend that much taxpayer money to keep them in these facilities.

    If ever there is an example of a messed up political system to the detriment of native wildlife and native range, the feral horse and burro situation is the best example I can think of.
    Well said and I agree! One more tidbit, each wild horse herd as managed also have population limits set by land use plans. It would be an interesting exercise to tally those up and compare them to the overall number as allowed in the WHBA. My guess is the sum of the individual plans would far exceed that of the overall number set by the "organic" act.

    I'm kinda interested to see where these permittee lawsuits go. Not sure any in the past ever made it to setting precedence, but I do know the BLM has lost more than once in NV on trying to reduce permitted grazing on allotments when the horse numbers were over the objectives they set and failed to maintain.

    I can only imagine the shrill shrieking that'd be heard if permittees were some 200% above permitted...

    This has to be impacting both Desert Bighorns and California Bighorns in NV. Surprised the well-heeled sheep groups haven't pushed this issue harder.

    RobG- The cattle numbers are constrained by the LUPs and subsequent permit decisions. Even with 0 horses the numbers can't be increased over what has been analyzed in those without more analysis. Which would be protestable and appealable. There is no impacts analysis of the horse numbers. You seem to know a different type of "conservationist" than I do if you and them find that a better situation...

  2. #52
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    There are many species found in North America during the Pleistocene that went extinct here but may still be found in Eurasia or Africa (or at least close relatives). The American lion (Panthera leo atrox) or cave lion is very similar if not larger than the species that still exist in Africa and Asia. If one of these modern lions were accidentally re-introduced into North American I think a lot of people would have problems with it. The African and Asian lions evolved in their habitat and fill a niche in that ecosystem. If introduced into an area where they and more importantly their fellow animals have evolved to fit the the niche they are in (absent lions) it would certainly upset the order that has been established over thousands of years. Same for the horse, since they had been absent from the landscape for so long everything (plants and animals) have evolved to fill the appropriate niche left absent by the extinction of the horse in North America. With their re-introduction 500 years ago they certainly have changed the landscape and are occupying niches that used to support native species. The horse being a herbivore obviously has a different impact than would a prey species like a lion, the impact however may be more severe than that caused by a carnivore.

    My other big concern for Midwest and East is the feral pig. They are certainly doing as much damage as the horse in Western landscapes. The pig however has become a popular "game" species and is now being managed by private entities. An industry has developed over the years to insure that sustainable number of pigs are left on the landscape because of the profit incentives they offer. I only raise this point to counter the anti horse sentiment.

    In my opinion both species should be managed back to extinction in the wild. If you want to raise livestock (horses and pigs) great. When we allow them to go feral and upset a delicate balance that has been established over tens of thousands of years we are playing with environmental fire. As I do not support the re-introduction of African lions I also do not support these non-natives on the landscape.

    We do need to remain sensitive to the broader population. Talking about shooting horses will not make us more popular with the public at large. We can manage our way through this problem but it will take $$$. Rounding them up would be a first good step. Castrating (or other means of birth control) would certainly help to reduce the population and may be more palatable to the general public. I don't think the adoption thing will work, there are just too many.

  3. #53

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    Let's set-up talks with Ken-L-Ration and ALPO. Problem solved.

  4. #54

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    I'm glad you are calling these animals feral because that is exactly what they are. I've had horses for riding and packing and really enjoyed them but I totally agree something needs to be done about the overpopulation of them on federal lands. Nevada has about 80% of the feral horse population and everywhere you go there are horses, even in the very dry south end of the state.
    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1_pointer View Post
    One is easily regulated/managed with the laws currently on the books and one is not... Either one needs to be managed to adhere to the objectives of the management plans for the area. See my first sentence for figuring out which one it is easier to accomplish this with.

    Then why are judges often required to get the management agencies to regulate/manage with the laws currently on the books???
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  6. #56
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    duplicate post
    Last edited by JoseCuervo; 06-08-2016 at 02:47 PM.
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  7. #57
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    T. Boone's old lady is a wild horse freak.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...03682955486302

    Kind of hard for the "well heeled sheep groups" to compete on that level, Pointer.
    Wood is Good treefarmsystem.org

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoseCuervo View Post
    Then why are judges often required to get the management agencies to regulate/manage with the laws currently on the books, in the manner in which the litigants (who are not scientists) want to see the laws interpreted???
    Fixed that for you.
    My name is Randy Newberg and I approved this post. What is written is my opinion, and my opinion only.

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  9. #59
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    Randy, I think if you really got involved in the cattle issues south of us you would find out that Jose is spot on. That issue really has different dynamic than the issues around here. I've been there, done that, hated the whole damn mess, and now that I'm back in Montana where conditions are better suited to cattle I'm fine never fighting another cattle disaster again.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobG View Post
    Slaughtering horses for human consumption has been off/on illegal in the last few decades. I don't think you can do it now. What are the options for killing horses these days?
    Too bad too. I have never eaten one that I know of, but I know of a few guys who went to Africa and said Zebra was amazing table fare.
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  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmalts View Post
    Too bad too. I have never eaten one that I know of, but I know of a few guys who went to Africa and said Zebra was amazing table fare.
    Living in Kenya as a youngster, we discovered that many indigenous peoples shied away from eating zebra. Lots of folks would come into camp looking to take away any meat my dad wanted to donate, but they would almost invariably avoid taking offered zebra meat. I remember eating some camp-cooked zebra, and although it was just fine, it didn't touch eland or other gazelle meats.
    No one can go back and make a brand new start, however anyone can start from now and make a new ending.

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  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoseCuervo View Post
    Then why are judges often required to get the management agencies to regulate/manage with the laws currently on the books???
    Why are judges not required for all grazing decisions?

  13. #63
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    I've always thought the horsed should be turned over to Fish and Game to manage, wouldn't have to be hunted (as in shot). But sell a quota of tags to be removed from the range any way the tag holder see's fit, caught and sold, trained and used, or shot. A horse runner could get 50-tags if they wanted. maybe put some sort of requirement as to so many old studs for every 5 mares\colts etc. State makes money, horse numbers controlled, Federal government saves money, win win. except for the wild horse advocates

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by NV_ARCH3R View Post
    I've always thought the horsed should be turned over to Fish and Game to manage, wouldn't have to be hunted (as in shot). But sell a quota of tags to be removed from the range any way the tag holder see's fit, caught and sold, trained and used, or shot. A horse runner could get 50-tags if they wanted. maybe put some sort of requirement as to so many old studs for every 5 mares\colts etc. State makes money, horse numbers controlled, Federal government saves money, win win. except for the wild horse advocates
    They need a reality TV show like the gator hunters.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1_pointer View Post
    Why are judges not required for all grazing decisions?

    Because some agency personnel have started updating range management plans that were previously dated 1968....

    Funny how that works.
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  16. #66

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    Do den will be complete without one:

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JoseCuervo View Post
    Then why are judges often required to get the management agencies to regulate/manage with the laws currently on the books, in the manner in which the litigants (who are not scientists) want to see the laws interpreted???
    Fixed that for you.
    Bighorns and domestics.
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  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by NV_ARCH3R View Post
    I've always thought the horsed should be turned over to Fish and Game to manage, wouldn't have to be hunted (as in shot). But sell a quota of tags to be removed from the range any way the tag holder see's fit, caught and sold, trained and used, or shot. A horse runner could get 50-tags if they wanted. maybe put some sort of requirement as to so many old studs for every 5 mares\colts etc. State makes money, horse numbers controlled, Federal government saves money, win win. except for the wild horse advocates
    Good post. State F&G have proven they can manage game and non-game species.

  19. #69

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    We have 8 horses. I would kill and eat every one of them if I needed to. But then my wife would kill and eat me if I killed our horses.

  20. #70

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    I remember when I was just a kid in the late 60's there was horse meat for sale at our local Safeway grocery store. People weren't so squeemish about everything like they are now.
    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

    Cree Prophecy

  21. Default

    I could go for a Blue Cheese Bacon Brumby burger about now.

  22. Default

    Your quote from Roosevelt...doesn't match your post at all

  23. Default

    horses actually benefit their environment in numerous ways; vegetation seems to thrive in some areas inhabited by horses, which may be one reason the Great Plains were once a "sea of grass." Generally, range conditions in steep hilly areas favored by horses are much better than in lower areas frequented by cattle.

    Cows have no upper front teeth, only a thick pad: they graze by wrapping their long tongues around grass and pulling on it. If the ground is wet, they will pull out the grass by the roots, preventing it from growing back. Horses have both upper and lower incisors and graze by "clipping the grass," similar to a lawn mower, allowing the grass to easily grow back.

    In addition, the horse’s digestive system does not thoroughly degrade the vegetation it eats. As a result, it tends to “replant” its own forage with the diverse seeds that pass through its system undegraded. This unique digestive system greatly aids in the building up of the absorptive, nutrient-rich humus component of soils. This, in turn, helps the soil absorb and retain water upon which many diverse plants and animals depend. In this way, the wild horse is also of great value in reducing dry inflammable vegetation in fire-prone areas. Back in the 1950s, it was primarily out of concern over brush fires that Storey County, Nevada, passed the first wild horse protection law in the nation

  24. #74

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    Here's an article about the damage these feral horses are causing. A lot of the areas they inhabit are being destroyed by their overpopulation. I like horses like many people but there are out of control in the wild.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...P12paQf3fM-aYA
    When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

    Cree Prophecy

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prncssowl View Post
    horses actually benefit their environment in numerous ways; vegetation seems to thrive in some areas inhabited by horses, which may be one reason the Great Plains were once a "sea of grass." Generally, range conditions in steep hilly areas favored by horses are much better than in lower areas frequented by cattle.

    Cows have no upper front teeth, only a thick pad: they graze by wrapping their long tongues around grass and pulling on it. If the ground is wet, they will pull out the grass by the roots, preventing it from growing back. Horses have both upper and lower incisors and graze by "clipping the grass," similar to a lawn mower, allowing the grass to easily grow back.

    In addition, the horse’s digestive system does not thoroughly degrade the vegetation it eats. As a result, it tends to “replant” its own forage with the diverse seeds that pass through its system undegraded. This unique digestive system greatly aids in the building up of the absorptive, nutrient-rich humus component of soils. This, in turn, helps the soil absorb and retain water upon which many diverse plants and animals depend. In this way, the wild horse is also of great value in reducing dry inflammable vegetation in fire-prone areas. Back in the 1950s, it was primarily out of concern over brush fires that Storey County, Nevada, passed the first wild horse protection law in the nation
    Hmmm. That assertion about the benefits feral hoses provide would be completely contrary to what the most respected scientists on the topic would say. You providing this as a science professional?
    My name is Randy Newberg and I approved this post. What is written is my opinion, and my opinion only.

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