Wyoming drone/aircraft ban

I disagree...and its no bigger of a pain in the butt or waste of time than any other suspicious situation reported to Wardens every year.

Do you think everything reported each year turns out to be a violation?

What other suspicious behavior should we ignore because it could be a waste of time to investigate it?

I know you think differently, but there is no way you can know if a pilot is scouting or not. If you turn him in - and you seem quite willing to do so based on assumptions - it turns out to be a big pain in the butt and waste of time for everyone involved.

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That's exactly what I am afraid of...no way to enforce it. I do agree with the law & fair chase, but it's like giving a traffic officer the job to catch guy's speeding without the radar gun.

How will they enforce it in court, without the tools?

I guess after the state spends a 100gs getting a willing dummy to confess, and throw the book & pen at him. Justice will be served.

That's hard earned money at work.:W:

Thanks Buzz

Buzz - I just realized that you were directly involved in this and would have tempered my words had I known that. I agree with what you are trying to accomplish, however, changing the 24 hrs to 6 months is going to put pilots in a difficult spot.

Twenty four hours between "throttle to hunt" would cover most of the advantage that you will gain because the animals generally move everyday. I know that isn't entirely true, but it is a trade off.

un-enforceable?

I am not sure how so many are getting to this being un-enforceable. To me it is not different than many existing regulations. Its against the law to harass wildlife on their winter range but it is not against the law to drive through winter range. Wardens routinely patrol winter range. If all you are out doing is driving through and looking at a distance they may stop you, talk to you or just observe you from a distance. If you are not harassing anything then you go on your way. If you are then you may get ticketed. This one is easily enforceable. Not sure why that regulation is enforceable but not the flying to scout is not.

junior71 said:

That's exactly what I am afraid of...no way to enforce it. I do agree with the law & fair chase, but it's like giving a traffic officer the job to catch guy's speeding without the radar gun.

How will they enforce it in court, without the tools?

I guess after the state spends a 100gs getting a willing dummy to confess, and throw the book & pen at him. Justice will be served.

That's hard earned money at work.:W:

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.

I pay Wardens to protect my wildlife resources against poaching, market hunting, etc. etc. and to ensure fair chase hunting practices.

Rarely do the costs of a prosecution for any crime, let alone wildlife crimes, pay for themselves.

Not the reason why laws are enforced.

RobG said:

Buzz - I just realized that you were directly involved in this and would have tempered my words had I known that. I agree with what you are trying to accomplish, however, changing the 24 hrs to 6 months is going to put pilots in a difficult spot.

Twenty four hours between "throttle to hunt" would cover most of the advantage that you will gain because the animals generally move everyday. I know that isn't entirely true, but it is a trade off.

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Don't temper anything on my account, honest opinions and debate create better policy...in my world anyway.

The thing you need to realize is that the existing statute made flying to scout illegal for 12 months of the year.

Read that last line again.

The 24 hour regulation was in direct conflict with statute. Regulation can not conflict with or weaken statute. Regulation can strengthen statute however.

This wasn't something that was off the cuff. Myself and Jeff Muratore worked with the GF and AG on this for several months.

The 8/1-1/31 was needed since this is now a hunting specific regulation in regard to using aircraft. Therefore, the first open season in Wyoming for big-game is archery antelope that opens on 8/15. We agreed to give the antelope a 2 week head start. The latest a big-game season goes in Wyoming is 1/31.

If the 24 hour regulation would just have been dropped, then flying to scout would have been illegal for 12 months of the year (this is what I would have preferred, but understand why the GF and AG office wanted the 8/1-1/31 language for a hunting regulation).

Make sense?

I understand that it is part of statute now, but that doesn't mean you should strengthen an already overreaching law.

If the 24 hour limit isn't consistent with statute how is the six month restriction consistent? It seems like it would have the same problem.

How would you handle the folks flying into the D*rfees?

During previous conversations in this forum on drones and airplane use during hunting season in violation of the regulation (or statute), I've not found any criminal convictions for scouting and hunting within 24 hrs.

The closest I could find was 1985 Alaska 3 planes seized - however that was based on poaching from the airplane. This is one a prosecutor has a leg to stand on though I find it hard to believe any prosecutor would be able to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt that a guy flying a plane during hunting season was in violation of the 24 hr WGF or FWP regulations with the crappy budgets we have available for enforcement operations.

Drones, airplanes... I am opposed to the use of aerial craft for purpose of hunting within 24hrs. In fact, I believe it should be during the hunting season - however, having recently found the debacle between game cameras and a horse crap regulation so broad to cover upland game bird, waterfowl and antelope, etc hunting seasons (in MT), I would find this to be the same scenario yet even more difficult if not impossible to enforce w/ successful prosecution.

If Wyoming has a conflict between statute and regulations - seems a given it is required to be reconciled. Though year round? I sure hope MT does not follow this line of vague enforcement potential. Regardless, criminal prosecution for a 24hr time span during hunting has little to none with respect to 24hrs none the less year round... At least w/in 24hrs Wardens have a fighting chance for a prosecutor to consider taking the case... intercepting radio communication - link to members on the ground hunting (outfitter / family, friends) etc... though even at that how many cases have found successful criminal prosecution?

Year round seems wasted breath for a statute, IMO. Though WY is for the citizens of WY.

Note: This is from my personal search for criminal convictions within MT and WY - and extended to AK to find at least something... Have there been criminal convictions in WY for the use of aircraft for scouting? None that I could find... And Buzz, I always appreciate your opinions on matters and most often agree with your sentiment so please don't burn me at the stake. I simply have a differing opinion on this one with response and relation to the enforcement and successful criminal prosecution of such scouting cases.

Sytes said:

During previous conversations in this forum on drones and airplane use during hunting season in violation of the regulation (or statute), I've not found any criminal convictions for scouting and hunting within 24 hrs.

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Perhaps I am too honest, but I actually try to abide by these rules and therein lies the problem. I can live with not hunting the same day I fly even though I know I'd never get caught. I can see how that would give a person a significant advantage. However, not being able to spot elk for 6 months out of the year? Why should I have to abide by that rule if I have no intention of using it for hunting?

It would help to know the exact wording of the proposed regulation.

In plain English RobG they can't enforce it. You may get cited, but you will destroy them in court.

That's a fact,

Make sure you counter sue! and all will be right!

junior71 said:

In plain English RobG they can't enforce it. You may get cited, but you will destroy them in court.

That's a fact,

Make sure you counter sue! and all will be right!

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This guy was prosecuted successfully in Wyoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPcVWh9hccE

Flying regulations cant be enforced?

Roll the dice and see what happens.

That was due to a public posted youtube video and not an aerial scouting issue for a hunt... it was blatant wildlife harassment by some punk that thought it would be fun video taping him/herself flying with a herd of elk. Enjoyed some of the comments though. Pretty entertaining..
Completely separate topic from this thread though I suppose could be related if someone posted their aerial hunt scouting - picking out a bull via video, landing and video taping him shooting it within 24hrs... well then, that would be related though reality is... there are no criminal convictions for aerial scouting of elk - that I am able to locate. Buzz, you may know different?

I think it's good that they are trying to regulate the scouting from the air because I know it happens and I know that people kill some very big animals every year because of it. I have seen photos of several very big bucks and very big bulls that were found with aircraft.

Sytes said:

That was due to a public posted youtube video and not an aerial scouting issue for a hunt... it was blatant wildlife harassment by some punk that thought it would be fun video taping him/herself flying with a herd of elk. Enjoyed some of the comments though. Pretty entertaining..
Completely separate topic from this thread though I suppose could be related if someone posted their aerial hunt scouting - picking out a bull via video, landing and video taping him shooting it within 24hrs... well then, that would be related though reality is... there are no criminal convictions for aerial scouting of elk - that I am able to locate. Buzz, you may know different?

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Without the 24 hour loophole it will be easier to enforce.

With the number of video cameras out there these days, it will happen. Randy11's still photos he took last year on a WY antelope hunt would have led to a conviction.

The GF already knows who is flying to scout, and I reckon a chat with them letting them know about the law and that they are being watched may be all it takes.

I know a wealthy landowner who scouts elk for his outfitter and relays locations of the elk to him while airborne...His outfitter says that they don't do that, but they may discuss the locations over a drink or two that evening. BS, that's why I see his outfitter and clients lounging around camp during the day, then right after the landowner flies all over the area they pack up and haul butt somewhere.
Try to enforce that when they all tell the same lies. G&F is too cozy with the ranchers, and look the other way.

In previous posts, Buzz has referred to my bighorn hunt of 2013. I finally drew Unit 5 with 19 years of preference points. I am a trad bowhunter, so invested 2 weeks of scouting over 100 miles with my llamas in the Wilderness of the Grey bull drainage. I eventually found one drainage that had 21 rams so decided to hunt there...my wyo friends showed up to be my required guides. Opening morning shortly after dawn my Wyo friend was flagging me up 1500 feet vertical or so towards a lone mature ram, when a light plane dropped into the canyon and circled the ram repeatedly. My friend said the ram left before I got there and up into some unapproachable cliffs. I am not a happy camper. Day 2...I knew where 17 rams had been hanging in an open basin for over a week. Right after dawn another plane appeared and repeatedly dove onto the band, appearing to deliberately drive these sheep out of an open basin into some cliffy area. That evening....surprise....an outfitter showed up on horses and camped 1/2 mile above me with his bowhunter client. Wonder who hired the plane? I didnt. Of course the next day they searched for the rams on horses, but the plane dive sequence was successful in driving the rams somewhere neither of us could find them. They had left the country I tried other places as well, having my 2 weeks of scouting wasted by planes. One group of guys who were scouting for rifle season told me...."If you think it is bad now, just wait til rifle season. You will see low planes every day". After 19 years and nearly a month scouting and hunting I never drew my bow. Of course I left Wyoming soured on outfitters with airplanes. Hopefully not all outfitters , but from what I observed, aerial scouting/locating sheep is a real problem. What happened to fair chase? Real hunting should involve uncertainty. Planes largely take out the uncertainty of finding rams.

Flynarrow said:

In previous posts, Buzz has referred to my bighorn hunt of 2013. I finally drew Unit 5 with 19 years of preference points. I am a trad bowhunter, so invested 2 weeks of scouting over 100 miles with my llamas in the Wilderness of the Grey bull drainage. I eventually found one drainage that had 21 rams so decided to hunt there...my wyo friends showed up to be my required guides. Opening morning shortly after dawn my Wyo friend was flagging me up 1500 feet vertical or so towards a lone mature ram, when a light plane dropped into the canyon and circled the ram repeatedly. My friend said the ram left before I got there and up into some unapproachable cliffs. I am not a happy camper. Day 2...I knew where 17 rams had been hanging in an open basin for over a week. Right after dawn another plane appeared and repeatedly dove onto the band, appearing to deliberately drive these sheep out of an open basin into some cliffy area. That evening....surprise....an outfitter showed up on horses and camped 1/2 mile above me with his bowhunter client. Wonder who hired the plane? I didnt. Of course the next day they searched for the rams on horses, but the plane dive sequence was successful in driving the rams somewhere neither of us could find them. They had left the country I tried other places as well, having my 2 weeks of scouting wasted by planes. One group of guys who were scouting for rifle season told me...."If you think it is bad now, just wait til rifle season. You will see low planes every day". After 19 years and nearly a month scouting and hunting I never drew my bow. Of course I left Wyoming soured on outfitters with airplanes. Hopefully not all outfitters , but from what I observed, aerial scouting/locating sheep is a real problem. What happened to fair chase? Real hunting should involve uncertainty. Planes largely take out the uncertainty of finding rams.

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I cannot imagine the frustration you must have felt.
I would have been tempted to do something stupid and possibly illegal if I was in that situation.