Good. Maybe he has never met anybody as tenacious as you critter. mtmuley
2014 Alaska Moose
- Thread starter thecrittergitter
- Start date
the other side
I am writing this in order to compare the real truth with critter gitter's near truths-
1. I am not privy to the details of the pick up arrangements tom and Harold had but I did make a trip to Wasilla for supplies and pick up Harold -during the three hours I was in town I attempted about 20 times to phone him and never got an answer-note to cg it is legal to fly supplies and passengers on the same flight.
2. re 23 people in camp on cg arrival-more than 1/2 were film , building , and camp crew help
3. re nyles- he came to camp early because he enjoys being in the wilderness-he did not HAVE to find his own sheep and come back to get a guide so he could legally shoot it. I guided him on the sheep hunt and thoroughly enjoyed being on the mountain- he is the epitome of what I admire in a hunter-no ego problems-and relishes the entire process. after he got the sheep tom told me to take him down river via the 4 wheeler to a good crossing point so he could go hunt moose on his own- I complied.
4. re flying comments-bush flying is a demanding endeavor-there is a big difference between capability of aircraft to handle wind-the larger heavier planes landing on long strips can accommodate higher velocities than a cub. the strips at the spike camps are much shorter -rougher and may not line up good with prevailing winds--it is often that strips only a few miles apart have different wind conditions-you can land at one safely and not the other- the camp cg and Harold were using is an exceptionally short swampy strip which requires special wind conditions- that my explain why the troopers used a helicopter to go in there.
5. re sheep hunter with no food tent etc--that is misleading-they were low on food but had plenty of sheep meat-they had a tent- it got damaged in the wind storm-the winds were so bad tom almost wrecked in an attempt to get to them and was unable to for several days-the comment on the sub legal sheep was a cheap shot- it was an honest mistake- and the jury is still out on the legality- they are going to get a second opinion from an unbiased expert
6.re number of sheep killed- I have guided that area for over 30 years for two different master guides-we have averaged about 12 rams per year for that entire time,
7. re overbooking with 40 hunters- with 4 10 hunt blocks and factoring in the 2 on 1 hunters- and non guided hunters for moose and caribou that is not excessive. by the way there were seven guides plus tom which makes 8.
8. re comment on 10 hunters in camp with moose tags- many if not most hunters buy all possible tags just in case circumstances allow them taking another animal
9. re comments on filling out contracts- I know all my hunters had contracts filled out-the first half prior to the hunt and the second upon completion of the hunt- I witnessed 4 or
5 times tom working on contracts with hunters before and or after the hunt
10. re comment on failing to try to get nyles moose out-they did try for two days to get an 8 wheeler to the site but failed due to mechanical failures.
11. re comments on spoiled meat--first let me say that I have been harvesting , processing , and consuming wild game longer than many of you have been alive-given there are a multitude of ideas on how to handle meat in the field but based on my experience, many of them are invalid-in the fall of the year the temperatures are normally low enough to allow the meat to stay in the field for weeks-the key is to get the hide removed- the quarters separated and let air cool the meat .the traditional story of not keeping the meat dry has been found to be un founded- akdf&g now recommends that In hot weather the meat be placed in a lake or stream to keep it cool until you can transport it-in that same area they discourage the use of black plastic bags. about 1/2 of the meat cg and Harold harvested made it back to camp the next day or two after the season closed- it was in fine shape- part of it was sent via an air taxi operator that day and the rest with another pilot friend who happened to be flying thru-that meat was donated-and names can be provided-the rest was brought into the base camp a few days later- it was frosting at night--it was all in excellent shape - prior to the troopers coming in and confiscating it portions of it were prepared for the crews still in camp my self included- it was excellent! as a side note- high end meat venders age meat for 45 days at temps in the high 40 s f- I am not sure if the comment on a trailer full of rotten meat in my yard was an assumption or if someone was trespassing but in any case it is untrue- I processed one of those meat for me one for tom and louie 1/2 for a neighbor and gave one to my grandson--all that meat was fine!
12. re inference freezer was too small to handle all the meat- it was a constant cycle of meat going thru-the sheep is cut wrapped and frozen as soon as possible as it is brought in- some hunters take some with them and the rest is rapidly consumed by camp personnel and hunters-it takes a lot of meat to feed that many people! NO ONE WITH ANY SENSE WOULD WASTE SHEEP MEAT early caribou are also cut wrapped and frozen but most of the moose is allowed to age pending processing back in civilization,
13. re comments on troopers taking dna samples to prove it was rotten is interesting-would love to see the scientific explanation on how that works- and secondly why go to that expense and time when it so simple to get an unbiased third party to check texture , odor, and taste
14.I have worked for tom for ten years or so and never known him to willingly and knowingly violate any game regulations nor has he asked any of his guides to do so. he has always tried to accommodate special requests of paying clients. there was a lot of chaos this year due to the building of the cabin and associated filming and building crews-coupled with the crises of weather , remoteness, and day to day changes it was not possible to accomplish every thing as quickly as he would have preferred.
I am writing this in order to compare the real truth with critter gitter's near truths-
1. I am not privy to the details of the pick up arrangements tom and Harold had but I did make a trip to Wasilla for supplies and pick up Harold -during the three hours I was in town I attempted about 20 times to phone him and never got an answer-note to cg it is legal to fly supplies and passengers on the same flight.
2. re 23 people in camp on cg arrival-more than 1/2 were film , building , and camp crew help
3. re nyles- he came to camp early because he enjoys being in the wilderness-he did not HAVE to find his own sheep and come back to get a guide so he could legally shoot it. I guided him on the sheep hunt and thoroughly enjoyed being on the mountain- he is the epitome of what I admire in a hunter-no ego problems-and relishes the entire process. after he got the sheep tom told me to take him down river via the 4 wheeler to a good crossing point so he could go hunt moose on his own- I complied.
4. re flying comments-bush flying is a demanding endeavor-there is a big difference between capability of aircraft to handle wind-the larger heavier planes landing on long strips can accommodate higher velocities than a cub. the strips at the spike camps are much shorter -rougher and may not line up good with prevailing winds--it is often that strips only a few miles apart have different wind conditions-you can land at one safely and not the other- the camp cg and Harold were using is an exceptionally short swampy strip which requires special wind conditions- that my explain why the troopers used a helicopter to go in there.
5. re sheep hunter with no food tent etc--that is misleading-they were low on food but had plenty of sheep meat-they had a tent- it got damaged in the wind storm-the winds were so bad tom almost wrecked in an attempt to get to them and was unable to for several days-the comment on the sub legal sheep was a cheap shot- it was an honest mistake- and the jury is still out on the legality- they are going to get a second opinion from an unbiased expert
6.re number of sheep killed- I have guided that area for over 30 years for two different master guides-we have averaged about 12 rams per year for that entire time,
7. re overbooking with 40 hunters- with 4 10 hunt blocks and factoring in the 2 on 1 hunters- and non guided hunters for moose and caribou that is not excessive. by the way there were seven guides plus tom which makes 8.
8. re comment on 10 hunters in camp with moose tags- many if not most hunters buy all possible tags just in case circumstances allow them taking another animal
9. re comments on filling out contracts- I know all my hunters had contracts filled out-the first half prior to the hunt and the second upon completion of the hunt- I witnessed 4 or
5 times tom working on contracts with hunters before and or after the hunt
10. re comment on failing to try to get nyles moose out-they did try for two days to get an 8 wheeler to the site but failed due to mechanical failures.
11. re comments on spoiled meat--first let me say that I have been harvesting , processing , and consuming wild game longer than many of you have been alive-given there are a multitude of ideas on how to handle meat in the field but based on my experience, many of them are invalid-in the fall of the year the temperatures are normally low enough to allow the meat to stay in the field for weeks-the key is to get the hide removed- the quarters separated and let air cool the meat .the traditional story of not keeping the meat dry has been found to be un founded- akdf&g now recommends that In hot weather the meat be placed in a lake or stream to keep it cool until you can transport it-in that same area they discourage the use of black plastic bags. about 1/2 of the meat cg and Harold harvested made it back to camp the next day or two after the season closed- it was in fine shape- part of it was sent via an air taxi operator that day and the rest with another pilot friend who happened to be flying thru-that meat was donated-and names can be provided-the rest was brought into the base camp a few days later- it was frosting at night--it was all in excellent shape - prior to the troopers coming in and confiscating it portions of it were prepared for the crews still in camp my self included- it was excellent! as a side note- high end meat venders age meat for 45 days at temps in the high 40 s f- I am not sure if the comment on a trailer full of rotten meat in my yard was an assumption or if someone was trespassing but in any case it is untrue- I processed one of those meat for me one for tom and louie 1/2 for a neighbor and gave one to my grandson--all that meat was fine!
12. re inference freezer was too small to handle all the meat- it was a constant cycle of meat going thru-the sheep is cut wrapped and frozen as soon as possible as it is brought in- some hunters take some with them and the rest is rapidly consumed by camp personnel and hunters-it takes a lot of meat to feed that many people! NO ONE WITH ANY SENSE WOULD WASTE SHEEP MEAT early caribou are also cut wrapped and frozen but most of the moose is allowed to age pending processing back in civilization,
13. re comments on troopers taking dna samples to prove it was rotten is interesting-would love to see the scientific explanation on how that works- and secondly why go to that expense and time when it so simple to get an unbiased third party to check texture , odor, and taste
14.I have worked for tom for ten years or so and never known him to willingly and knowingly violate any game regulations nor has he asked any of his guides to do so. he has always tried to accommodate special requests of paying clients. there was a lot of chaos this year due to the building of the cabin and associated filming and building crews-coupled with the crises of weather , remoteness, and day to day changes it was not possible to accomplish every thing as quickly as he would have preferred.
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
Well hello there Bob! Glad to see Tom has recruited more help to try and defend him. Was getting lonely on this side of the ring......Just thought I would take a moment here to clarify a couple things on your post.
1. As disorganized as things are at that camp, I'm not surprised that you were not privy to every detail of picking up Harold in Wasilla. However, your comment that you went to town for supplies and to pick up Harold is a touch misleading. (especially since tom claims that multiple trips were made to pick him up
) You say you tried to call Harold about 20 times in 3 hours. (you , or at least Tom, had 3 phone numbers for Harold and numerous ways to contact him) Considering the fact that Harold had been sitting for days with NOTHING to do but wait for your call, nobody on the planet is going to believe you made much attempt to get a hold of him. I know that every single time I called him, he answered, even had Lawnboy call him when I ran out of service to check in with him and he answered his calls every time. You may or may not know that Harold actually talked to your wife right after you left with that load of supplies and she was pretty clear that there was not enough room on that plane for a passenger with all the supplies you took. In fact, her comment was that you couldn't have even fit another candy bar on that plane. Therefore, leading us to believe, that supplies were more important than taking Harold out to camp. Also, I don't recall ever saying it was not legal to carry supplies and passengers. Of course you could do that.......you just chose not to.
2. I agree some of the people were there building a cabin, and on the film crew. Not arguing that, but most of the people that were there while I was there in camp were HUNTERS! I spoke to all of them, had plenty of time there! You were actually gone in a spike camp, the majority of my time there....And come to think of it, almost everyone working on the cabin while I was there were packers, guides, and clients. People who should have been doing anything other than building a cabin!
3.I'm really glad you brought this up I couldn't agree more on part of this. Nyle is an outstanding guy! Which is why it really sucks that Tom would totally throw him under the bus. Are you aware of the fact that Tom is maintaining to Alaska Fish and Game that Nyle never had permission from him to go kill a moose, that the wasted moose is 100% on Nyle for going to kill it where he did?? Your statement that TOM TOLD YOU to take Nyle to a good river crossing so he could go hunt moose is fabulous. It is completely accurate also, as I was there in the machine with you and Nyle. You just made the investigation on whether Toms story was right or Nyles story was right, much more clear. Thank you for that. As far as how your Nyles sheep hunt went, I wasn't there. All I will say is that your version and his are not the same...........and I believe his story.
4.Most of what you state here is accurate and I would agree with you about flying conditions. You are an experienced pilot and I would trust that if you said a certain condition was not flyable, I would believe you. However, when Tom states that weather is no way flyable, and sends me hiking out of camp to look for moose, then throws hunters in the plane and flys out (have pics and videos of all of it by the way) less than 20 minutes later, that was a bullchit statement just to get me out of there. And you weren't there at that time so you can have no say on whether it was flyable there or not. And to answer your question on why the Troopers landed with a helo instead of a plane had nothing to do with wind or weather at all. He specifically told us on the radio that he could probably pull off the landing but didn't want to chance it with his tiny tires he had on that particular plane. Said with Toms tires, it would be no problem. I also have numerous messages to Tom telling him that the lake was like glass and weather was perfect for picking us up. Yet, he was on his email telling Harolds wife at those exact same times that he can't get to Harold and I due to bad weather. It's a lie Bob, plain and simple. One of the other hunters that sat in base camp for days was also a pilot by the way and he was very clear that most of Toms claims of unflyable conditions were absolute bs.
5. It's almost laughable that you are changing your tune on this particular situation. Were you actually not threatening to call state troopers on Tom if he didn't get his ass in there to pick those boys up? At least that was the talk at camp. You were not a happy camper, probably because the guide out there was your Grandson. So, since you brought it up, I specifically left peoples names such as your grandson Daniel out of any of it to prevent throwing people that I thought were great guys, under the bus. Your grandson Daniel, what little I know, seems to me to be a great guy. The fact that he guided a hunter to a sub-legal sheep, I would agree with you was an honest mistake. The point here is this, no matter how nice or great a guy is, Tom shouldn't be putting people like Daniel in a position to have to make those decisions. Never guiding or even hunting sheep before is not the best person to have making decisions on borderline rams. Read the post on Rokslide of the hunters first Dall sheep hunt..........his "guide" was as green as the hunter!! A good outfitter does not put people like Daniel in a high risk situation. I really feel for Daniel, he is a great dude. As a 30 year sheep hunter, your comment that it was an honest mistake tells me that no second opinion is necessary. And of course you are also implying that the state trooper that confiscated it is wrong on his assessment.
6.OK I don't have any comment on that. Good for you guys I guess.
7.I would like to see how many people would agree with you that 40 hunters out of one camp isn't a bit excessive. Also, there was no way Tom was guiding anyone........don't try and play that card. I would also like you to name all 7 guides that were there available to guide hunters on September 15........if there were that many, why were there so many hunters sitting in camp waiting to go hunting. And of those 7 guides, plus Tom, please post the credentials and experience of all 7. You can exclude you and Louie, you two are certainly qualified. Course Louie wasn't there......so you can't include him in your count.
1. As disorganized as things are at that camp, I'm not surprised that you were not privy to every detail of picking up Harold in Wasilla. However, your comment that you went to town for supplies and to pick up Harold is a touch misleading. (especially since tom claims that multiple trips were made to pick him up
) You say you tried to call Harold about 20 times in 3 hours. (you , or at least Tom, had 3 phone numbers for Harold and numerous ways to contact him) Considering the fact that Harold had been sitting for days with NOTHING to do but wait for your call, nobody on the planet is going to believe you made much attempt to get a hold of him. I know that every single time I called him, he answered, even had Lawnboy call him when I ran out of service to check in with him and he answered his calls every time. You may or may not know that Harold actually talked to your wife right after you left with that load of supplies and she was pretty clear that there was not enough room on that plane for a passenger with all the supplies you took. In fact, her comment was that you couldn't have even fit another candy bar on that plane. Therefore, leading us to believe, that supplies were more important than taking Harold out to camp. Also, I don't recall ever saying it was not legal to carry supplies and passengers. Of course you could do that.......you just chose not to. 2. I agree some of the people were there building a cabin, and on the film crew. Not arguing that, but most of the people that were there while I was there in camp were HUNTERS! I spoke to all of them, had plenty of time there! You were actually gone in a spike camp, the majority of my time there....And come to think of it, almost everyone working on the cabin while I was there were packers, guides, and clients. People who should have been doing anything other than building a cabin!
3.I'm really glad you brought this up
I couldn't agree more on part of this. Nyle is an outstanding guy! Which is why it really sucks that Tom would totally throw him under the bus. Are you aware of the fact that Tom is maintaining to Alaska Fish and Game that Nyle never had permission from him to go kill a moose, that the wasted moose is 100% on Nyle for going to kill it where he did?? Your statement that TOM TOLD YOU to take Nyle to a good river crossing so he could go hunt moose is fabulous. It is completely accurate also, as I was there in the machine with you and Nyle. You just made the investigation on whether Toms story was right or Nyles story was right, much more clear. Thank you for that. As far as how your Nyles sheep hunt went, I wasn't there. All I will say is that your version and his are not the same...........and I believe his story.4.Most of what you state here is accurate and I would agree with you about flying conditions. You are an experienced pilot and I would trust that if you said a certain condition was not flyable, I would believe you. However, when Tom states that weather is no way flyable, and sends me hiking out of camp to look for moose, then throws hunters in the plane and flys out (have pics and videos of all of it by the way) less than 20 minutes later, that was a bullchit statement just to get me out of there. And you weren't there at that time so you can have no say on whether it was flyable there or not. And to answer your question on why the Troopers landed with a helo instead of a plane had nothing to do with wind or weather at all. He specifically told us on the radio that he could probably pull off the landing but didn't want to chance it with his tiny tires he had on that particular plane. Said with Toms tires, it would be no problem. I also have numerous messages to Tom telling him that the lake was like glass and weather was perfect for picking us up. Yet, he was on his email telling Harolds wife at those exact same times that he can't get to Harold and I due to bad weather. It's a lie Bob, plain and simple. One of the other hunters that sat in base camp for days was also a pilot by the way and he was very clear that most of Toms claims of unflyable conditions were absolute bs.
5. It's almost laughable that you are changing your tune on this particular situation. Were you actually not threatening to call state troopers on Tom if he didn't get his ass in there to pick those boys up? At least that was the talk at camp. You were not a happy camper, probably because the guide out there was your Grandson. So, since you brought it up, I specifically left peoples names such as your grandson Daniel out of any of it to prevent throwing people that I thought were great guys, under the bus. Your grandson Daniel, what little I know, seems to me to be a great guy. The fact that he guided a hunter to a sub-legal sheep, I would agree with you was an honest mistake. The point here is this, no matter how nice or great a guy is, Tom shouldn't be putting people like Daniel in a position to have to make those decisions. Never guiding or even hunting sheep before is not the best person to have making decisions on borderline rams. Read the post on Rokslide of the hunters first Dall sheep hunt..........his "guide" was as green as the hunter!! A good outfitter does not put people like Daniel in a high risk situation. I really feel for Daniel, he is a great dude. As a 30 year sheep hunter, your comment that it was an honest mistake tells me that no second opinion is necessary. And of course you are also implying that the state trooper that confiscated it is wrong on his assessment.
6.OK I don't have any comment on that. Good for you guys I guess.
7.I would like to see how many people would agree with you that 40 hunters out of one camp isn't a bit excessive. Also, there was no way Tom was guiding anyone........don't try and play that card. I would also like you to name all 7 guides that were there available to guide hunters on September 15........if there were that many, why were there so many hunters sitting in camp waiting to go hunting. And of those 7 guides, plus Tom, please post the credentials and experience of all 7. You can exclude you and Louie, you two are certainly qualified. Course Louie wasn't there......so you can't include him in your count.
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
Ive now posted comments on 8 thru 13 and somehow everything keeps deleting
try for a third time.
8. I don't care how they got their tags........and they are all good guys, doesn't change the fact there were a pile of moose hunters.
9. You may want to rethink this one bob..........you remember one of your clients was Mike. did you read his post on Accurate Reloading forum??You should.
Tom filled out contracts after hunters were done hunting only as a panic mode to get his paperwork right........many hunters will verify they did not have one done prior to hunting. I don't know the legalities on having contracts done BEFORE a hunt but considering Tom was doing contracts after hunts and back dating them, I'm sure there was a reason for that.
10. That's stupid bob. You are correct, they did make an attempt. TOm set them up to fail and that moose went to waste on account of it. Tom could have easily flown the packers to cross cut camp and had them hike in and take care of the moose. Tom told many folks in camp he has been wanting to build a trail from base camp to cross cut so they could use wheelers all the way there. He used this as an opportunity to try and start the trail. He sent them on an impossible mission to recover a moose with a machine 5 miles from camp through rivers, mountains, and heavy timber. It would take weeks to cut that trail........he totally planned on a bear getting to it, but since he sent the guys out on making a trail, that was his backup plan for saying they tried. He once again set his packers up for failure. Then had the audacity to call them lazy, for not getting it done. Ridiculous. Those were some great, hard working guys! That Tom still hasn't paid by the way
try for a third time.
8. I don't care how they got their tags........and they are all good guys, doesn't change the fact there were a pile of moose hunters.
9. You may want to rethink this one bob..........you remember one of your clients was Mike. did you read his post on Accurate Reloading forum??You should.
Tom filled out contracts after hunters were done hunting only as a panic mode to get his paperwork right........many hunters will verify they did not have one done prior to hunting. I don't know the legalities on having contracts done BEFORE a hunt but considering Tom was doing contracts after hunts and back dating them, I'm sure there was a reason for that.
10. That's stupid bob. You are correct, they did make an attempt. TOm set them up to fail and that moose went to waste on account of it. Tom could have easily flown the packers to cross cut camp and had them hike in and take care of the moose. Tom told many folks in camp he has been wanting to build a trail from base camp to cross cut so they could use wheelers all the way there. He used this as an opportunity to try and start the trail. He sent them on an impossible mission to recover a moose with a machine 5 miles from camp through rivers, mountains, and heavy timber. It would take weeks to cut that trail........he totally planned on a bear getting to it, but since he sent the guys out on making a trail, that was his backup plan for saying they tried. He once again set his packers up for failure. Then had the audacity to call them lazy, for not getting it done. Ridiculous. Those were some great, hard working guys! That Tom still hasn't paid by the way
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
11. I don't doubt for a minute you have processed many a ton of wild game meat. You are probably great at it.......I would hope. However, I can tell you have been coached by Tom on what to say. Dang, busted. I don't think Tom realizes that his own emails are not allowing any of your timeline statements to be accurate. Essentially, you are wrong on the amount of our meat that was taken out and when. Well, I guess unless the state troopers reports of being at our campsite on numerous occasions is wrong Also, you are also correct, black garbage bags are horrible to keep meat in. We put them in those bags last minute only because Tom did not bring us the rest of the game bags as he said he would.......we even reminded him in an email that he got. I can dig that up for you if you like Tom said he would fly back out right away to get our meat and we again reminded him to do so because we didn't want it to go bad in the bags.....well, he didn't, you know it as well as we know it. You are also correct that some of our meat was flown on a charter. But you didn't mention that Tom took all the meat in black bags, and just threw those on the plane with no instructions to the pilot on who to call or anything. Trust me, the pilot was very clear about that in his logs. The pilot also reported that the meat was foul when it was loaded on his plane. I sent someone to pick it up the minute Tom sent an email out saying our meat was sitting at regal air in anchorage. Of course, he knew we were already home at that point. I sent my cousin in immediately and unfortunately, as we suspected, it was horrid! And yes, please provide all the names of the hungry families that you donated to. If you gave them anything, they are probably all sick!
12.Agreed, only an idiot would waste sheep meat! Actually, that said, only an idiot would waste any animal...............but I think we have already proven that Tom..........well, enough said.
Also, you are also correct, black garbage bags are horrible to keep meat in. We put them in those bags last minute only because Tom did not bring us the rest of the game bags as he said he would.......we even reminded him in an email that he got. I can dig that up for you if you like Tom said he would fly back out right away to get our meat and we again reminded him to do so because we didn't want it to go bad in the bags.....well, he didn't, you know it as well as we know it. You are also correct that some of our meat was flown on a charter. But you didn't mention that Tom took all the meat in black bags, and just threw those on the plane with no instructions to the pilot on who to call or anything. Trust me, the pilot was very clear about that in his logs. The pilot also reported that the meat was foul when it was loaded on his plane. I sent someone to pick it up the minute Tom sent an email out saying our meat was sitting at regal air in anchorage. Of course, he knew we were already home at that point. I sent my cousin in immediately and unfortunately, as we suspected, it was horrid! And yes, please provide all the names of the hungry families that you donated to. If you gave them anything, they are probably all sick!12.Agreed, only an idiot would waste sheep meat! Actually, that said, only an idiot would waste any animal...............but I think we have already proven that Tom..........well, enough said.
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
13. Troopers stated when they went to our site and all our moose meat was sampled days after we left, it was determined inedible. The DNA I'm sure will be used to compare to some other moose that you guys claim went to some "donation"....... I don't know the details of troopers procedures, I just know that troopers were there and took meat that was still at our site days after we left and it was bad..........
14. You are wasting your breath trying to say this is a good outfitting business Bob.......when over half your clients hate their experience and would never go back, you are failing, I know if I were you, I'd start looking for a guiding job someplace else.....
Any more evidence you need me to dig up??
Like our numerous messages to tom stating the weather is great, please come get us.
Or a reminder to bring more game bags???
Or how about the emails from Tom stating all our moose meat was out of the campsite and in fabulous condition, in fact eating some as we speak. And that he is waiting on us to tell him what to do with it??? Funny that the dates on the emails are not matching the plane logs on transport and also its interesting that he states that on a particular day, yet state troopers were there AFTER that email and all our meat was still in the field. Help me out Bob, I'm not understanding.....
Ya know, I think there is something fishy about one side of this story don't you think? The trouble with someone who lies a lot.............is they can't always keep them straight. I got caught lying a few times as a kid, basically figured out quick that I suck at it......so I figured its easier not to......
14. You are wasting your breath trying to say this is a good outfitting business Bob.......when over half your clients hate their experience and would never go back, you are failing, I know if I were you, I'd start looking for a guiding job someplace else.....
Any more evidence you need me to dig up??
Like our numerous messages to tom stating the weather is great, please come get us.
Or a reminder to bring more game bags???
Or how about the emails from Tom stating all our moose meat was out of the campsite and in fabulous condition, in fact eating some as we speak. And that he is waiting on us to tell him what to do with it??? Funny that the dates on the emails are not matching the plane logs on transport and also its interesting that he states that on a particular day, yet state troopers were there AFTER that email and all our meat was still in the field. Help me out Bob, I'm not understanding.....
Ya know, I think there is something fishy about one side of this story don't you think? The trouble with someone who lies a lot.............is they can't always keep them straight. I got caught lying a few times as a kid, basically figured out quick that I suck at it......so I figured its easier not to......
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
mdhunter61
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2010
- Messages
- 432
Question for Bob Graham
I have a question for Bob Graham - why did Tom have this gentleman make his check out to someone else, and call it "Advertising"?? That sets off all sorts of alarm bells in my head about whether he was accurately reporting his outfitting activities. This seems misleading at best, and potentially fraudulent at worst. Care to hazard a guess??
I have a question for Bob Graham - why did Tom have this gentleman make his check out to someone else, and call it "Advertising"?? That sets off all sorts of alarm bells in my head about whether he was accurately reporting his outfitting activities. This seems misleading at best, and potentially fraudulent at worst. Care to hazard a guess??
Raised a red flag for me as well. Looks like things are getting a bit desperate bringing in more "witnesses". Still, a fail...
More popcorn, please!
duckhunt
Well-known member
Keep after em critter. The proof does not lie.
Muley Crazy
Member
"Your statement that TOM TOLD YOU to take Nyle to a good river crossing so he could go hunt moose is fabulous. It is completely accurate also, as I was there in the machine with you and Nyle. You just made the investigation on whether Toms story was right or Nyles story was right, much more clear. Thank you for that. As far as how your Nyles sheep hunt went, I wasn't there. All I will say is that your version and his are not the same...........and I believe his story."
that made my day !! thanks BoB
that made my day !! thanks BoB
Bambistew
Well-known member
An unbiased expert, that's laughable. Pretty sure every Trooper has the same bias towards sub-legal animals being killed, or at least I sure hope they do!!! Or are you saying that the troopers hold some prejudice against Shankster, so the legal ram was called sub-legal? I'm so confused because you then say it was an honest mistake, so you know it was sub-legal? Was it called in, or did the troopers discover it after the fact?The ram is either full curl and/legal by age/broom or it isn't. The ones with red tags are usually very easy for even the "unbiased" experts to judge as sub-legal, they don't red tag them unless they know they can win it in court. Best of luck fighting that one, its a loser from the start.
Easiest way to avoid needing Vaseline is to shoot bigger/older sheep and let the little ones grow. An honest mistake, or a rushed execution on part of an experienced guide? $$$$ and/or pressure to deliver makes people do stupid things.
Sad thing is that the guide won't likely be held accountable, the hunter will.
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
So, glad you brought that up because I thought the same thing. BOB is a 30 year expert and making a comment that it was an honest mistake means.............it was sublegal.
And no it wasn't called in, which is what made the problem bigger. Tom tried to argue that it was legal when the trooper showed up and was like what the hell is this.......Probably could have been different had it been called in as a possible sub legal.
I personally saw the ram, and Harold saw the ram when it rolled into camp. Me, I'm no expert but I know when I saw it, my first question was, yikes, I don't think that one is gonna make the grade
Harold walked over to it and looked at it for about 5 seconds and said, there is no way, shape, form, explanation that will ever make this sheep legal..........wasn't full curl, was 6 yrs old if I recall correctly, and wasn't double broomed..........essentially, it didn't meet any of the criteria..........
There were no cheap shots taken Bob. All I pointed out was that a sublegal sheep was killed. I didn't mention the names of the people in the field, the guide or the hunter. The guide is a great dude from the little I got to be around him, and seems like a great guy to be around. But with no sheep guiding or hunting experience.........he was put in a horrible position.
Tom didn't care about his guides. In fact, do you recall the packer (another good guy) that Tom basically forced into being a guide because he didn't have enough guides? He even told Tom he didn't want to guide, he had no idea what he was doing when it came to guiding and he didn't know what the hell to do if his client shot a moose. Toms response. "Its easy, just like a big deer" you can handle it............Then, not only does he force someone to be a guide that doesn't want to because the person themself states they aren't ready or qualified, Tom has the balls to turn said guide into troopers for not having a hunting license
(as a guide in AK, you are required to purchase a hunting license) To do that just so you look like an "honest" guy to the troopers is unbelievable. Then, that guide took his hunters out and they shot a moose......trooper flew over and saw there was way too much meat still on the carcass. He lands and confronts guide. Guide even states to trooper that he is sorry he didn't get all the meat off, he has no idea what the hell he is doing, he didn't even want to be a guide in the first place..........To defend someone that puts people in positions such as this is starting to show the character of you.........it becomes more than just guilty by association.
Bob, did your grandson get paid by the way..............because I still know at least 3 guys who haven't received a dime from their work last season. One has been paid some after finally getting an attorney. Why isn't Tom paying his help? He has plenty of deposits from this year already..........Or is he using all that deposit money to pay his attorney? and so be it if all the hunters this year get screwed......
Guess we will see.
Bambistew
Well-known member
I just want to know what it takes to be an unbiased expert? What certifications does it require? Convicted of poaching, professional biologist, guide, LE?
Any pictures of the sheep by chance? The jury is out on a 6yo ram. Yeah, its out alright... with a conviction. Best of luck next time.
Any pictures of the sheep by chance? The jury is out on a 6yo ram.
Yeah, its out alright... with a conviction. Best of luck next time.LarryShores
New member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2015
- Messages
- 1
Hmmmm
Let's just say that Mr. Graham is right which I doubt. There is still the issue of Shankster flat out lying regarding whether or not CG was a client or not. It seems pretty evident to me that CG was a client. Shankster says he wasn't. I can't conceive of a circumstance where this should be viewed positively for Shankster nor believable.
Everyone booking a hunt must make up their own minds about the outfitter they are booking with. This one issue would be more than enough for me.
Let's just say that Mr. Graham is right which I doubt. There is still the issue of Shankster flat out lying regarding whether or not CG was a client or not. It seems pretty evident to me that CG was a client. Shankster says he wasn't. I can't conceive of a circumstance where this should be viewed positively for Shankster nor believable.
Everyone booking a hunt must make up their own minds about the outfitter they are booking with. This one issue would be more than enough for me.
duckhunt
Well-known member
I just read a post on another site about a sheep hunt with this outfitter. The hunter filled his tag and had a great hunt but was also left in the back country for days. He and his guide ended up walking back to camp with a few close calls for serious injury. There were also reports of alot of ticked off hunters in camp.
TRS_Montana
Well-known member
This is almost as good as an episode of Jerry Springer, except both parties are usually idiots in those. Thanks for the lessons in documentation, Critter. I often wonder how many issues in this world would be solved if everyone were honest. It's a shame there are people out there like Shankster and his cronies. Hopefully this gets resolved and he no longer has the opportunity to influence the perception of guides and hunters.
mike123red
Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2014
- Messages
- 37
Thank you for your story. I'm starting my pilot school in Cincinnati Ohio this fall. If you remember me. Send me a message. In 1 or 2 years. I will fly you to your hunting location and back in good time for Free.
I hope more people find out about this guy Tom. People like him should not do anything with hunting or flying.
I hope more people find out about this guy Tom. People like him should not do anything with hunting or flying.
