Down bags, bivys, etc

For Carl, and anyone else with experience in this area:

The Valandre bag you posted in the other thread sounds nice, but I don't think my "go-to" bag will ever be rated warmer than +15*. I've frozen my arse off too many nights to trust temp ratings or weathermen again.

I've been considering the Montbell UL SS Down Hugger bags, either the #1 or #0. Any opinions on these bags?

I'm a bit concerned about making the switch to down due to condensation and precipitation issues, but the weight savings and compressible nature of down is attractive. I'm currently using an OR Alpine bivy, and I have had condensation in it. Is condensation really not an issue with the eVent material?

I've also been thinking about going the tarp route instead of a bivy, so that I've got a somewhat protected spot for gear, and to cook, etc. I really wouldn't want to be in a bivy in the conditions Dinkshooter posted in his thread. But with a down bag, I'm thinking that it would be a good idea to use a bivy in conjunction with a tarp. But if I'm carrying a bivy and tarp, I might as well just add a bit more weight and go with an UL tent.

I'm currently using a Prolite 3, but have been looking at NeoAirs (ie, my cheapskate ass has been getting outbid on Ebay ).

These decisions shouldn't be this tough. Perhaps there are too many choices these days.

So, Cliff notes version:

Down or synthetic?
Bivy, tarp, or UL tent?

Oak,
There are a few articles that relate to some of your questions here: http://www.highcalibergear.com/site/articles.html. The "single wall shelters" and "hard shells" articles talk about eVent a bit, the others are pretty self explanatory.
Of course there is no perfect single gear set-up, but I can sure appreciate wanting to have your bases covered without spending too much $$$ on gear.

Oak said:

I'm a bit concerned about making the switch to down due to condensation and precipitation issues, but the weight savings and compressible nature of down is attractive. I'm currently using an OR Alpine bivy, and I have had condensation in it. Is condensation really not an issue with the eVent material?

I've also been thinking about going the tarp route instead of a bivy, so that I've got a somewhat protected spot for gear, and to cook, etc. I really wouldn't want to be in a bivy in the conditions Dinkshooter posted in his thread. But with a down bag, I'm thinking that it would be a good idea to use a bivy in conjunction with a tarp. But if I'm carrying a bivy and tarp, I might as well just add a bit more weight and go with an UL tent.

I'm currently using a Prolite 3, but have been looking at NeoAirs (ie, my cheapskate ass has been getting outbid on Ebay ).

These decisions shouldn't be this tough. Perhaps there are too many choices these days.

So, Cliff notes version:

Down or synthetic?
Bivy, tarp, or UL tent?

Click to expand...

Oak,
My preferred setup right now is my North face Cats Meow Synthetic (20*) with a MSR Event bivy. If I get cold, I go to a bag liner to warm things up and keep my woolies on.

I get bad condensation with my event bivy. ESPECIALLY if I have the mummy hood on the bag sucked up tight and the bivy completely closed. NOT impressed with the EVent bivy, but given that I use it in conjunction with an UL tent.. it gets the job done. I like my Goretex bivy Much better, but fits sloppily and is a hassle, heavy and bulky too.

I also use an ultralight tent with my setup; using a golite teepee most of the time.
Overall, the setup is great, extremely versatile and light and affordable(important to me).

My opinion: Synthetic, bivy, & UL tent.
Consider though that I have the need for slight overkill being a resident of SE Alaska. Never hunted or camped in the L48 so your needs may be different. For instance: a down bag might work for you and be lighter/more compressible. Down isn't a good option in SE Alaska. You might also get by with a tarp.. again, not such a great idea where I live.

Oak, I don't want to compress my thoughts into what I've got time to type up here at work, but I'll try and write something this evening.

I will say, given high quality materials and construction, most equipment out there is ideal for something, and it becomes an issue of matching your uses to the most appropriate gear, this regarding down vs synthetic insulation, bivys/tarps/tents etc.

Down is nice, but I cannot get over the fear of getting wet and suffering because of it. Newer synthetic materials are coming out all the time helping those bags get smaller and lighter every year. Also companies like REI are using a standard rating to sort out the temp ratings used on bags. This will help a lot in making choices.

icb12,

Which MSR bivy do you have? Your experiences with eVent vs Gore-tex just run sooooo counter to mine and most of my friends that I'd like to check out the specs. I couldn't find one they made in eVent, but did find the MSR E-Bivy, which looks to be a non-breathable supplement/emergency style bivy.



Oak,

If you're OR Alpine Bivy is like the current production ones, it used Gore-tex Respiration Positive, which is a membrane I have no personal experience with. Based on some research, it sounds like an air permeable membrane (which is eVent's trump card) so it is possible that it would perform in the same range as an eVent bivy. Without numbers and better yet experience I'm speculating.

With my Big Agnes bivy, I've had minimal condensation under most conditions (a little might be there, but it's not an issue), except for one very wet trip where the snow was falling fast enough I couldn't hardly keep it off the surface, and there was lots of water inside from my own carelessness. It is definitely superior to my Bibler Hooped bivy, which uses Todd-tex, which should still best standard Gore-tex.

Now if you are going to use a bivy in conjunction with a tarp, in most moderately dry western climates I'd look at a more minimal bivy than anything discussed thus far. My personal choice is the Rab Ultra Bivy, a sleeping bag cover style (as in, it is cut to fit your sleeping bag, you, and nothing else) made of very breathable (even vs eVent) Pertex Endurance. This offers the benefits of being very light and breathable, while providing sufficient added protection to supplement a tarp. The Endurance isn't technically waterproof, but it is knocking on the door, and I have used mine alone in rain storms without issue. This is what Big Fin had in Nevada this year when his down bag remained dry while unattended in a rainstorm. Rab seems to have discontinued the Ultra Bivy, though it's still on their site, but the Survival Zone Lite appears to fit the same mold and I'm anxious to check it out when we get some in at High Caliber Gear.

Ultra Light tents certainly have their place, and I oscillate between them and a bivy, depending on mood, conditions expected, and how my last trip went. The bivy has been getting more use recently because it sets up easier and in more places, can handle most any winds, is lighter and less bulky than all but the most extreme of UL 'tents', and I feel adds a measure of additional warmth to my sleep system. If I can't decide on one for myself, I won't assume I can tell you what you'll be most happy with, though hopefully I'll add an insight of some sort. I am a gear junkie, so I don't think much of having a few different bivys and tents around to use in different conditions, and still try out new gear and my friends setups when I feel something else could be 'better'. Gear today is a plethora of riches.

Regarding down vs synthetic sleeping bags, my short answer without knowing anything about specific conditions is 'it depends'. For the style of trips I do, where I do them, I don't even think about synthetic, and in fact don't currently own one. A few reasons: there is some precipitation where I hunt, but it is generally limited. As far as mountain hunting goes, I hunt pretty dry mountains. Hunts in a lot of Canada and Alaska would require a different perspective on this. It is also rarely humid where I hunt, limiting condensation challenges and speeding bag drying in the event it does get wet. My hunts are often of relatively short duration, 5 nights in the field is about tops for me, and two or three are most common. This gives my bag less time to accumulate moisture, and if it does get soaking wet I have to suffer through it for less time. If I have to bail due to conditions, typically puts less on the line than say a 14 day sheep hunt. Also, contrary to some belief, down bags don't become useless at the first sign of moisture. They just loose efficiency the more saturated they become. One would have to be very soaking wet before you'd be better off without it. The upside of down of course being, I get a lighter, smaller bag that helps contribute to a three night pack of this size (September elk hunts require less cold weather gear and get less optics than deer hunts):



Regarding temperature ratings, they are a pretty personal thing. Complicating matters, bag ratings vary a lot, though in my experience the higher end down stuff is rated pretty accurately/conservatively. The Europeans just came out with a standardized rating system, and they express a bag as a wide range (based roughly on comfy-vs-sleeping-vs-surviving), and also rate a bag nearly 15 degrees different for women. Lots of stuff factors in, and one issue that sometimes bites me is I'll run my tank so dry hunting or hiking, that it will be really hard for me to warm up. That said, I view the bag as just one part of my sleep system, and often count on other items to add warmth. A full bivy or a four season tent like a Hilleberg will often add noticeable warmth vs a standard three season tent. I carry insulated clothing year round, and will put on a puffy jacket in my bag if needed, along with a good beanie and light gloves. One thing that used to get me is I'd be worried about getting cold, zip my bag up all the way with extra clothing on, start to sweat a little, and end up wet and then chilled. I'm very careful now to remove clothing or vent my bag if I feel this coming on. Using some of these techniques I stay pretty comfy to below a bag's rated temp.

Regarding the Montbell's in specific, I think pretty highly of them. I bought my dad a #1 Super Stretch, and recently a #3 UL Spiral for myself. They are good quality down bags with some extra comfort for the Super line (due to the cut and the stretch) and a great DWR that sheds water like a champ.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the input, guys.

icb12 said:

Oak,
My preferred setup right now is my North face Cats Meow Synthetic (20*) with a MSR Event bivy. If I get cold, I go to a bag liner to warm things up and keep my woolies on.

My opinion: Synthetic, bivy, & UL tent.
Consider though that I have the need for slight overkill being a resident of SE Alaska. Never hunted or camped in the L48 so your needs may be different. For instance: a down bag might work for you and be lighter/more compressible. Down isn't a good option in SE Alaska. You might also get by with a tarp.. again, not such a great idea where I live.

Click to expand...

I have a Cats Meow, and have spent some shivering nights in that thing. Might have something to do with the fact that it's about 16 years old. I agree that a down bag wouldn't work for AK, and I'll probably keep my TNF Tundra for those trips, even though it's north of 4 pounds and a bit of overkill.

Carl said:

Oak,

If you're OR Alpine Bivy is like the current production ones, it used Gore-tex Respiration Positive, which is a membrane I have no personal experience with. Based on some research, it sounds like an air permeable membrane (which is eVent's trump card) so it is possible that it would perform in the same range as an eVent bivy. Without numbers and better yet experience I'm speculating.

Click to expand...

I can't really complain about the amount of condensation I've had, as it was really only noticeable over the course of 2-3 days. However, it was very dry conditions.

Carl said:

Now if you are going to use a bivy in conjunction with a tarp, in most moderately dry western climates I'd look at a more minimal bivy than anything discussed thus far. My personal choice is the Rab Ultra Bivy, a sleeping bag cover style (as in, it is cut to fit your sleeping bag, you, and nothing else) made of very breathable (even vs eVent) Pertex Endurance. This offers the benefits of being very light and breathable, while providing sufficient added protection to supplement a tarp. The Endurance isn't technically waterproof, but it is knocking on the door, and I have used mine alone in rain storms without issue. This is what Big Fin had in Nevada this year when his down bag remained dry while unattended in a rainstorm. Rab seems to have discontinued the Ultra Bivy, though it's still on their site, but the Survival Zone Lite appears to fit the same mold and I'm anxious to check it out when we get some in at High Caliber Gear.

Click to expand...

I'm liking the idea of a setup like this for early season hunts.

Carl said:

I am a gear junkie, so I don't think much of having a few different bivys and tents around to use in different conditions, and still try out new gear and my friends setups when I feel something else could be 'better'. Gear today is a plethora of riches.

Click to expand...

Yeah, my problem is that I have been searching for the perfect setup to use for scouting in the summer, archery elk hunting in September, blacktail hunting on Kodiak in October, mule deer hunting in November, and Coues deer hunting in December. I am quicky realizing that this setup does not exist.

Carl said:

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Yeah, this is going to be expensive.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, guys.

For my uses, I have not had any trouble keeping my down bag dry enough to keep me warm. Plus, with the way down feels, I can't see myself not having one for using in most of the West.

I don't know that I'd ever just go with a bivy as a shelter, too restrictive for me. However, using one in conjuction with a tarp/single wall shelter would be pretty slick. Especially if you want to use one with a stove. If the stove idea doesn't trip your fancy, the weights of some of the new 1-2man double wall tents make it hard not to go that way. I've spent most of my tent time in cheap Coleman's or a Kelty with no trouble, I can imagine any of these newer ones not being as durable. Big Agnes has some that are scary light.

great info---I carry way to heavy of a bag, but I sleep great in my Wiggys Ultima and find it hard to try and replace it with a down bag--the wet down thing scares me also. I hate sleeping cold, been there and done that(old, very old Cats Meow also, but used sparingly) and I promised to never use that bag again except for summer.

I do have in my arsenal a Ti-goat bag liner and Ti-goat bag cover, which maybe I should look into using with a down bag or a lighter syn-bag(just hitting me brain cell right now that I could try this this yr when in NEBR)--maybe that combo would keep me toasty like my Wiggys and keep the down bag or synbag dry. I see Ti-goat now has a new bivy that's super light. I'm not sure I'd use it alone in foul weather, but as a down bag protector maybe it fits the bill. I may buy one and see. I/we use plastic or tarps under the sleeping bag for protection also.

Of course doing so will require a down or syn bag, but which one????

For a shelter I don't think you can go wrong with a Kifaru or Ti-Goat tepee with the Ti-goat stove. The Go-lite tents, like mentioned in the other thread(I think that's where it's at) with a sewn in stove jack and Ti-goat stove is another option.

I did buy a two man tent a couple of yrs ago, but really I do like the stove thing I/we use in my 8 man Ti-goat tepee, so I could just buy a smaller tepee and be set to go if I was to go solo.

Guess I'll go look at some down and syn bags now to see what's new.

chris

Would that hammock system with a tarp that schmalts uses work? I think that would be pretty good from what I have seen of it. Gets you up off the ground and gear could be stowed uner it with a tarp also going over the hammock for extra coverage from the elements. I use the Wiggy's bag and have never been cold with temps down into the low teens.

You guys really need to try a hammock with a rain fly for 3 seasons camping. I have not used a tent for 5 years now. PM me and I can hook you guys up.
Think about how many times you found an area to camp but wandered around looking for a place that was level, no rocks, no roots, no water settle depressions. With a hammock all you need is two objects to tie onto. Plus, most find it to be the best sleep they had.side sleeping is no problem, and you are very level in these new designs

Schmalts.. From the pics you have posted of it I like the system and think it would be great for spikeing out hunting. Throw in a tarp, jetboil cooking system and a good bag and your pretty set. Maybe in the future for sure for me but this year going to pull the trigger on an alaknak and wood stove setup. Maybe next season though.

The tarp is part of the hammock system. Two size tarps are available. Look ath the thread with me and millers lope hunt, I am caping our lopes under the xl size fly I sell. I will have to post pictures when I get home on how small the setup packs. If you are under six foot you can get into a sub three pound setup

IMO the most useful/versatile ultra light system is a lightweight bivy and a tarp. I have made a few tarps and bivies and spent many nights in them.

The Ptamigan bivy from Ti Goat is good for this. I made something similar, waterproof silnylon tub floor with a water resistant breathable top (full length).

Mine weighs 4oz. The opening doesnt seal closed because its primary use is with floorless shelters so there was some weight savings there. The full length breathable top does well, the only problem spot is the foot box but not so much that it wont dry if I lay it out under the tarp while im away. I think the Ptarmigan performs much the same as the materials are almost identical.

I could never like laying out in the rain even if the bivy was fully weather proof. I like that buffer the tarp provides. At least you can be half out of the bag digging through your pack for whatever reason. I made something along the lines of a Kifaru Supertarp that weighs 11oz. Still under a pound with bivy. Provided you hike with a couple trekking poles or dont mind cutting some wood to pitch it.


Here next to a Nallo 3GT




All of the stuff I made has a equivalent produced here in the US by backpackers. The money I saved making my own shit I blew on Western Mountaineering bags, a 20* and a -10*. Those bags ooze American Made quality when you get one in your hands. I havnt had any issues other then a damp foot box over the course of several days in the bivies. With the Tarp, bivy and WM Alpenlite my shelter sleep kit is under 3 lbs if I use the Z lite and drops in the bottom of my pack. Good luck in your quest Oak.

Oak,

I prefer UL tent. combined with 20 degree down back (REI sub kilo) It provides some room to dry gear, etc.

My favorite thus far is the Kifaru Paratipi with small stove.

I'll have it out and about this coming weekend if you want to stop in. I'll be calling you shortly.

Thanks for the photos, AKDrifter. I really like the stuff you made, and it's lighter than most on the market. Appy Trails makes a much cheaper (than Kifaru) tarp tent that is similar in shape to yours, but it weighs around 19oz.

I have been considering the Ptarmigan if I go with a down bag (which I think I will). Under a tarp, it won't have to be waterproof, and it will help the condensation issue.

I picked up a Shangri-la 3 yesterday. Much heavier than the shelters you are using. I'll give it a try and see if I like it. I could really reduce the weight if I can figure out how to use 2 trekking poles for the center pole.

I would still like full tent for more serious weather situations. Still leaning towards the Nallo 2 GT, but also considering a Big Agnes Copper Spur. I know that Bambistew uses one...anyone else out there have any experience with one?

The hammocks sound nice for one person, but might be uncomfortable for two, unless you're really good friends like schmalts and AZ402 are.

That's some pretty good looking homemade gear AK, light too.

I'd not get too excited about the Appy trails shelters Oak, they're a good recipe for buying twice. A Shangri-la 1 or Integral Designs Silshelter would be much higher quality options. There's guys who have custom machined trekking pole connectors for pitching Shangri-la 3's, 4's, and 5's. I've been looking for a commercial source, no luck yet.

If you need a four season, the Hilleberg's are, of course, great. The Copper Spur doesn't really compete with them, but Big Agnes's String Ridge and Royal Flush do, and well. There's been lots of discussion at the shop comparing the String Ridge and the Nallo 2 GT, as they are functionally equivalent and we've all used them both enough to have real opinions. The Hilleberg has a shorter sleeping area, and it seems to come up for the guys who are 6'2"+. Being shorter, it's a non-factor for me.

My brother-in-law wrote this up on Rick's site, and did a pretty good job. String Ridge vs Nallo 2 GT

here's what I'd get and then I'd buy the versa port and have him sew it in--

http://titaniumgoat.com/vertex5.html

The Vertex 5 is sized just right for two people and a small amount of gear. This tent does not come with a pole,
or the Versa-Port. The Vertex 5 comes with carbon fiber tent stakes and is designed to be pitched with trekking
poles for weight savings. Adjustable Goat Poles with a lower section used in the handle end work great for
general use. AGPs with a TiGoat Pole Doubler make for an even stronger pole for high winds and snow loads.
Specifications:
Weight: Canopy and stuff sack 21oz, stakes 3oz, 24oz total
Length: 118" (9.875')
Width: 104" (8.666')
Height: 60" (5')
Square footage: 54 Sq/ft
stakes: 12 Carbon fiber stakes
pole: None, order separately.
Price: $300 ..............Out of Stock.......Ships in 2 weeks of order
Color Option


Removable no-see-um netting door panel:
Weight: 4oz
Price: $75

4 section carbon fiber pole:
weight: 4.6oz
Price: $



will have to check that appy trails out....chris

Carl--thanks for the appy trails info--I won't even bother looking at it....chris

Carl--great write up by your bro-n-law--

I also have the Marmot early light that we used on our hunt last yr in CA---not bad, but it never got that cold and I only used this one trip, but I really do like the camping stove thing and I'm having a hard time wanting to camp without if the weather is going to be cold or anytime really....