HEY JJhack

Here's the Scoop. My work partners dad is a Taxidermist. His hunting buddy from long ago and still longtime frined is Dick Gram. He worked for Federal; Carterage bullets and I think managed Van Dykes Taxidermy for years. Top knotch guy from what I hear and loves Africa.

Anyways, My partner took him on a fishing trip a few three weeks ago and they talked Africa. He recomended an Outfit or two and now hes Sold. Africa '07 it is.

Well, Me being me, I can't let him go alone (actually there is 2 others going). But heres the Deal, he doesn't mind spending the Money as long as we have a few things covered. And I wanted you to tell him why we should use you. I'd love to hunt with you but I need a little sales pitch. MAybe I can Bump a few topics but untill then.....

1. Need Good quality free ranging animals.
2. Need nice accomidations (IE, no one shooting at us )
3. Safety, Safety safety.
4. Want to have a Fun time. Of the 4 of us, I rink the most with 4 beers a year. they don't drink. Fun is LAughing and telling jokes around the Campfire.
5. Need to be safe.
6. A giraffe must be available (Thats for me )
7. Need good variety of Critters.
8. We need to travl safe.... (HAve you gotten this yet !!!)
9. Need a Guide that is knowlegeable and will treat us like Family. For them, they're planning on going only once.
10. Looking at a 10 day hunt.

Got a Sales pitch ? Thanx man !!

Moosie -

1. His animals are born wild and are not trucked in.
2. He's got nice lodges with real beds.
3. It's safer than most anywhere else in Africa!
4. Jim does not drink. He does tell a helluva story,though!
5. See 3.
6. There are giraffes there!


There you go. Jim can sell you on the rest!

Moosie, send me an address and I will send you my Powerpoint Presentation which was used at a sports show based in the Seattle Area. It should help you with this situation quite a lot.

I've nothing to worry about where my business is concerned, My reputation, or your complete happieness!

This Powerpoint is self contained you do not have to have Powerpoint software, nor know how to use it. You just drop the CD in the drawer and click it to start. Adjust the volume, then sit back and watch it.

PM sent... Awaiting the Presentation

Jim - don't forget that you were going to send me one, too...

Yeah that's right!

Oscar, I sent the PM the CD is over 10meg so it has to go via regular mail. I'm working on getting it into the website now.

If you need info on my operation, remember that the website is a wealth of info www.HuntingAdventures.net

You got my snail mail ?

Elk Mountain Engineering, Inc.
ATT. Vice President ......
4286 E. Amity Rd. Ste. 103
Nampa ID 83687

JJ,

If Oscar chooses your services, please school him on proper hunting bullet selection and application.

JJ... don't mind his Babblings...........

Yeah - don't let him use those match bullets on African game!!!

That bear I kilt this year and the Elk and deer I kilt last year never knew the difference. I switched on my Sheep hunt but since then have done nothing but match kings...... I'd post all the Dead pictures of critters I've killed but this thread couldn't hold all the pics I'm guessing African Animals die like American animals ?

According to some folks, including Jim, African animals are tougher than comparably-sized American animals. But it's your money - remember that you pay the trophy fee for any animal that is wounded.

I venture that Jim has killed more than even you, Oscar. He has certainly killed more African game....

But what the heck - Full metal jacketed bullets have killed a lot of men and animals, too. You put a hole in the right organs and anything will die. Sooner or later. The difference is that you are often shooting one animal in a whole herd - kinda harder to track which set of footprints belongs to the critter you wounded, and especially hard to track if your "target" bullet failed to exit and is not leaving a good blood trail. But hey - it's your money and your hunt, so use those bullets that are not designed to shoot animals....

Here are some posts from another forum on the subject of "Is African Game Tougher than American Game?"

Quote: My general observation is that any good, solid, elk-caliber rifle makes an absolutely perfect African plainsgame rifle, JUST AS LONG AS YOU FEED IT GOOD BULLETS!

Quote from JJHack on the thread:

Interesting thread and opinions.

Everything shot through the heart will die, just as it will when shot through the lungs. The difference is the distance/or time it will travel before it dies, and the amount of blood given to locate it.

Some things to consider incude anatomy, which is the biggest issue for my hunters and one which I cover in great detail with all the hunters in camp before each hunt. As previously stated the depth of the chest from brisket to backbone is a greater span in many African species. Many Americans who aim for the middle as they would at home shoot far to high for the organs and far to low for the spine. There is always a story later about how tough the animal was. "It was hit perfectly through the chest and ran miles without ony blood".

African game for most of the larger plains species has much thicker skin then American game. Kudu being an exception. Zebra, wildebeast, gemsbok, Hartebeest, Tssessebe, sable, etc. even the warthog have extremely thick tough elastic skin comparable to NA Mtn Goats, and wild boar. This is a much tougher to penetrate and bleed from substance then other game around the world. The thorns and hooks these animals live in have likely been the evolution of this very tough hide. The toughest hides are typical of herd animals which spook and run wildly through the bush to escape in a panic. Animals like the Kudu which are not herd animals but rather live in small family groups use stealth and skill to evade rather then blinding speed and brush crashing.

Speaking of herd animals. Another issue with plains species is the typical dry dusty conditions and the sandy soil. Combined with being herd species make for extremely difficult tracking at times. In North America almost all game shot will be a lone animals. Once shot you can watch the reaction and departure of that animal for some period of time.

Now switch to Africa plains species like a Zebra, Gemsbok or Wildebeest. You see a trophy you wish to shoot and it's among 25 other animals. When the shot is clear you take it. At that instant all hell breaks loose in a plume of dust so great you can hardly see through it. Much like a shell game the animal you shot becomes lost in the stampeed. Not only that but using a small caliber rifle reduces the blood flow. The only spots of blood are now covered in the settling dust and what do you have? ........nothing. Yet you are sure of the shot placement.

Herd mentality will push game many levels beyond anything you can imagine to stay with the group. Now 1/2 mile or more without any blood trail and the game is lost. African game can seem much tougher when this happens. The same event with a single bull elk, deer, bison, moose, etc would be much easier to follow up visually letting you see what happened. Then tracking a single animal is far less complicated then trying to follow a thousnad foot prints in the sand to find the one you shot.

As you follow this group trying to keep up, the sick one peels away from the group and slowing down it will lay up and die. Yet you pass that single set of tracks up staying with the group. Finding one set of tracks that peels away in a 50 yard wide stampeed made by 25 animals is a needle in a haystack. When you see the group again you cannot identify any that are sick, and none with blood. Only then you realize it's somewhere behind you. Good luck!

Yeah African game seems tougher and the conditions can be difficult with the herds, and anatomy, and the much thicker skin. As I said anything shot in the heart or lungs will die. The real question is how long will it live after that and how far can it go. It's my opinion having hunted professionally in both Africa, and North America( including AK) that more game by a large margin with what seems like good shots and good equipment is lost in Africa then everyplace else I've worked combined. I'll add to that more game is shot there too. Which also has to be considered.

There is great difficulty folloing bears in SE AK when its a drizzle in the wet rain forest areas and the hunter has used a small caliber rifle. That is just as difficult. But we are only talking one species. Africa has so many speices that can cause this stress, it creates this feeling they are tougher.

They are tougher to find, I have spent far more time looking for African animals then NA animals. That ratio is not even close! I'm not talking about the shot placement or bullet quality. Just a good hunter making a good shot and having the animal run and die in a situation that took a heck of a long time to resolve.

I think the thick skin evolution because of the thorns, and the herd life style do make them more difficult to locate. I also feel they are a bit tougher or more willing to run and fight for their last breath.

Elk, Mtn goats, and wild hogs are the three toughest NA game I've seen shot and keep traveling a long way. Moose could be added to that as well, but it's more their shear size that gets them a lot of bullet impacts without falling. You could say the same about Austrailian water buffalo, American Bison and Eland. I have to seperate real tough to kill animals from those that are just so big they can take a pounding before death sets in.

Here's a link to the other forum, if you want to read all about it.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=974493&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

Very good info there Cali.

Crap.. and I just added 2 more bear and a Deer to my list of bullets that don't kill animals

That is a Good read though, thanx for the post.

As Jim said : Everything shot through the heart will die, just as it will when shot through the lungs. The difference is the distance/or time it will travel before it dies, and the amount of blood given to locate it.

As I have said - even full metal jacket bullets will kill, if put in the right place. So let's all use them - after all, a lot of target loads use them, too.....