Take Back Your Elk

[Treeshark]

Using dishonesty to promote an agenda is splitting hairs? Dishonesty is irrelevant when it's used to promote something you agree with?

Ah. So it wasn’t just me that noticed it…

If you have to fib to make your point, chances are it’s not a very good point to begin with.

 

[SCliving Outdoors]

We could play “find that site” and over promote the entire GMU surrounding that ranch on here.

That bull was killed on public land in southern NM. It was a landowner tag and a guided hunt, but it wasn't on a ranch.

 

[huskyhunter]

That bull was killed on public land in southern NM. It was a landowner tag and a guided hunt, but it wasn't on a ranch.

This is what really gets me about landowner tags. I still have a hard time understanding why a landowner would get tags that they can sell that don't need to be used exclusively on private land.

 

[bulldawg10]

This is what really gets me about landowner tags. I still have a hard time understanding why a landowner would get tags that they can sell that don't need to be used exclusively on private land.

Because there is this really cool trade that NMDGF has that it does with landowners, if they choose too, where a tag is only good unitwide if the ranch it came from is also unit wide.

This has opened over 500k of private land acerage to public tag holder. Not just people that know the land owner or the select few a ranch chooses to sell trespass too...everyone gets more land access.

A lot of these unitwide private ranches open up easier acesss to tons of public lands too. Some even create access to landlocked public lands.

Additionally, it creates two more opportunities to hunt a full unit, via land ownership or your ability to get a tag by purchase, trade, gift, etc. Plus the draw.

The currently system promotes habitat improvements on private lands too and I wish they would find a way to expand unit wide interest. Use the existing system to encourage more ranches to go unitwide. Give me more acres to hunt, not take it away!!

One way I think they could do this is in the scoring system give unitwide ranches high scores, like a bonus point, or priority in the landowner draw.

EPLUS is the best system in the west overall though.

 

[Treeshark]

EPLUS is the best system in the west overall though.

Awesome post. It is nice to see some of the misinformation on here regarding New Mexico landowner tags being dispelled.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

The Open Gate program we have here is funded by the habitat management stamp we all buy as part of the hunting/fishing license. G&F leases private land from landowners and the public is then able to use these properties for defined uses per the lease. There is no need for landowners to sell off permits given them by the State for and they get paid too, oh wow!

Open Gate Private Lands - New Mexico Department of Game & Fish

Private land hunting, fishing, trapping with New Mexico Open Gate public access program. Landowner access payments, limited liability protection, & benefits.

www.wildlife.state.nm.us

 

[bulldawg10]

The Open Gate program we have here is funded by the habitat management stamp we all buy as part of the hunting/fishing license. G&F leases private land from landowners and the public is then able to use these properties for defined uses per the lease. There is no need for landowners to sell off permits given them by the State for and they get paid too, oh wow!

Open Gate Private Lands - New Mexico Department of Game & Fish

Private land hunting, fishing, trapping with New Mexico Open Gate public access program. Landowner access payments, limited liability protection, & benefits.

www.wildlife.state.nm.us

View attachment 324106

EPLUS does a lot more to help develop elk habitat than the pennies these open gate programs pay a landowner for access.

One, the scores system encourages improvements. In a desert like NM, with little surface water this is critial.

A lot of the wells are extremely deep, and surface solar equipment is usually needed to make them function. Wells in west central NM are over $50k now.

Many landowners want to put a well in to increase scores. The program forces them to be unitwide to make the highest dollars on tag authorization sales. The only way the elk get this new water at a price tag of $50k+ is because they have value and the land owner sees a way to "potentially" pay of it.

By that ranch going unitwide, you as a public hunter now have access to this land, elk and all wildlife have better water resources...and you can hunt them on this land / new water with no additional cost to you.

This is just one example of how this program far outperforms what open gate program will do in comparsion.

Nothing wrong with open gates, but landowners in that program have little to no reason to improve habitat, when compared to EPLUS.

 

[David58]

Because there is this really cool trade that NMDGF has that it does with landowners, if they choose too, where a tag is only good unitwide if the ranch it came from is also unit wide.

This has opened over 500k of private land acerage to public tag holder. Not just people that know the land owner or the select few a ranch chooses to sell trespass too...everyone gets more land access.

A lot of these unitwide private ranches open up easier acesss to tons of public lands too. Some even create access to landlocked public lands.

Additionally, it creates two more opportunities to hunt a full unit, via land ownership or your ability to get a tag by purchase, trade, gift, etc. Plus the draw.

The currently system promotes habitat improvements on private lands too and I wish they would find a way to expand unit wide interest. Use the existing system to encourage more ranches to go unitwide. Give me more acres to hunt, not take it away!!

One way I think they could do this is in the scoring system give unitwide ranches high scores, like a bonus point, or priority in the landowner draw.

EPLUS is the best system in the west overall though.

500,000 acres would be 0.64% of the acreage in NM. Granted, not all acreage is elk habitat, but 500K sounds like a lot, when maybe it isn't.

And I will betcha that at some level, a lot of those acres are not really open to hunting. EPLUS or not.

Like most problems, the solution ain't simple. But my hat is off to those that are doing their best to do it right.


David
NM

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

EPLUS does a lot more to help develop elk habitat than the pennies these open gate programs pay a landowner for access.

One, the scores system encourages improvements. In a desert like NM, with little surface water this is critial.

A lot of the wells are extremely deep, and surface solar equipment is usually needed to make them function. Wells in west central NM are over $50k now.

Many landowners want to put a well in to increase scores. The program forces them to be unitwide to make the highest dollars on tag authorization sales. The only way the elk get this new water at a price tag of $50k+ is because they have value and the land owner sees a way to "potentially" pay of it.

By that ranch going unitwide, you as a public hunter now have access to this land, elk and all wildlife have better water resources...and you can hunt them on this land / new water with no additional cost to you.

This is just one example of how this program far outperforms what open gate program will do in comparsion.

Nothing wrong with open gates, but landowners in that program have little to no reason to improve habitat, when compared to EPLUS.

Say a rancher Open Gates 400 hundred acres, especially riverfront riparian to only fishing and waterfowl. That could quickly exceed $10k annually.

https://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/download/commission/presentations/2022/03-04/19-Open-Gate.pdf

 

[bulldawg10]

Say a rancher Open Gates 400 hundred acres, especially riverfront riparian to only fishing and waterfowl. That could quickly exceed $10k annually.

https://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/download/commission/presentations/2022/03-04/19-Open-Gate.pdf

That's great but still doesn't compete with the buildout of EPLUS and how it contributes to improving overall elk habitat with it's score card system and habitat incentives. Nor is it even close to what the average EPLUS property would get going Open Gate vs EPLUS.

Hopefully the river frontage landowner will consider doing that in that location. That however doesn't compare to the vast majority of EPLUS lands.

The 400 acres in Open Gate instead would get basically $1000 or so from the open gate program. #1: This isn't enough money to risk having people on your property, #2: Doesn't incentivize landowners to do improvements and, #3: Doesn't pay enough to encourage landowners to invest in improvements for wildlife.

Additionally, no extra taxes are needed for EPLUS nor are the funds coming out of any department.

You as a public hunter are getting the open gate benefit of EPLUS unit wide at no cost as the improvements are done with private dollars. Funded by private dollars...and completed by private parties, yet you can hunt that land, buy that tag and enjoy, in many cases, overal improved habitat and larger herds for it.

 

[bulldawg10]

500,000 acres would be 0.64% of the acreage in NM. Granted, not all acreage is elk habitat, but 500K sounds like a lot, when maybe it isn't.

And I will betcha that at some level, a lot of those acres are not really open to hunting. EPLUS or not.

Like most problems, the solution ain't simple. But my hat is off to those that are doing their best to do it right.


David
NM

So encourage more to go unit wide...that would be amazing in my opinion. That is why I suggest a bonus point in the scoring for going unit wide. Make it more likley landowners draw bull tags via a higher scoring ranch, because they chose Unit Wide. This would easily lead to move properties opening to the public.

500,000 (I believe last time I counted, 570,000) acres is a lot of land...any landowners allowing the general hunting public freerange access to it is a big deal and a huge priveledge to be able to access that ground with no trespass fees, no guide, no background checks, and possibly never having talked to the landowner.

Buy some land one day and see how you feel about give hundreds of people access to it without your oversight. That is a big big deal.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

That's great but still doesn't compete with the buildout of EPLUS and how it contributes to improving overall elk habitat with it's score card system and habitat incentives. Nor is it even close to what the average EPLUS property would get going Open Gate vs EPLUS.

Hopefully the river frontage landowner will consider doing that in that location. That however doesn't compare to the vast majority of EPLUS lands.

The 400 acres in Open Gate instead would get basically $1000 or so from the open gate program. #1: This isn't enough money to risk having people on your property, #2: Doesn't incentivize landowners to do improvements and, #3: Doesn't pay enough to encourage landowners to invest in improvements for wildlife.

Additionally, no extra taxes are needed for EPLUS nor are the funds coming out of any department.

You as a public hunter are getting the open gate benefit of EPLUS unit wide at no cost as the improvements are done with private dollars. Funded by private dollars...and completed by private parties, yet you can hunt that land, buy that tag and enjoy, in many cases, overal improved habitat and larger herds for it.

No, your math is off. Open Gate pays handsomely and provides liability to those landowners. Did you read that link I attached? A mile of stream access for fishing and waterfowl hunting pays quite well. An 8ac pond pays $4k alone. And these are 2022 Commission prices. Landowner ranchers are big property people. Like section(s). I don’t care if someone with 50ac improves his parcel with his two UW tags sold for $7k a tag because it’s still only 50ac! No, nobody is going to use his land on their draw tag despite it being included in huntable property because it’s so tiny.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The only way the elk get this new water at a price tag of $50k+ is because they have value and the land owner sees a way to "potentially" pay of it.

Genuine questions as I want to understand the motivation from your perspective:

If the state gave cash payment equivalent instead of those tags, how many landowners would participate, in your estimation?

What about funding entire projects for wildlife habitat improvement?

Is the only motivation to improve habitat the profit, or is the altruistic intent there even if the funds to make it work in the operation are not?

 

[bulldawg10]

No, your math is off. Open Gate pays handsomely and provides liability to those landowners. Did you read that link I attached? A mile of stream access for fishing and waterfowl hunting pays quite well. An 8ac pond pays $4k alone. And these are 2022 Commission prices. Landowner ranchers are big property people. Like section(s). I don’t care if someone with 50ac improves his parcel with his two UW tags sold for $7k a tag because it’s still only 50ac! No, nobody is going to use his land on their draw tag despite it being included in huntable property because it’s so tiny.

It only pays that way in some situations with open gate.

Most EPLUS properties do not have an 8 acre pond, or a mile of stream frontage. But a ton of 200 acres or 400 acres places with a well and drinkers are extemely productive elk hunting properties...whether you care about them or not, they can be great spots. Even smaller places in many scenarios.

The liability of someone getting injured is covered by the state, but not of a gate getting left open and cattle getting out. A cabin getting broken into, or a surface water tank getting shot, equipment getting stolen.

And those things are definitely more likely to happen when you invite the public onto your property.

For reference, I hunted a 20 acres property in the Gila two years ago that was unit wide. Had a pond the elk where hitting almost daily....on a tag that I had a 1% draw odd of getting.

Glad I had the opportunity to hunt that place.

 

[bulldawg10]

Genuine questions as I want to understand the motivation from your perspective:

If the state gave cash payment equivalent instead of those tags, how many landowners would participate, in your estimation?

What about funding entire projects for wildlife habitat improvement?

Is the only motivation to improve habitat the profit, or is the altruistic intent there even if the funds to make it work in the operation are not?

No idea, but if the state funds it...you have a ton more red tape to jump thru in a process that already takes forever and I bet cost would get even higher if Govt was to get involved. That money also has to come from somewhere...likely more taxes. The last thing I want is the govt telling me or you what they are willing to pay for something, or how to do it or what vendors to use, or what it costs.

In the current system a private party buys the tag authorization and essentially funds these projects, or funds the rancher tolerance to accept more elk knocking down fences constantly, eating a higher percentage of his crop, etc. Not taxes, grants, etc that have to come from somewhere.

I know this, a lot of people are buying land in NM because it is an additional way to elk hunt. They have found a way to pay for costly improvements that benefit the elk they want to hunt. The public gets benefit too as we often gain new acres to hunt and the herds we enjoy are getting more resources too, from the current structure.

They are doing these costly improvement to either qualify a property to begin with or to improve their scoring to improve draw odds.

Ultimately, I don't care if they profit. I want more land to hunt, more options to hunt elk and more elk on the landscape. That is exactly what the current program does as it sit.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Oh, my apologies. I thought you were ranching and in the program.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Oh, my apologies. I thought you were ranching and in the program.

I think it was only Hank who has property in E-plus and talked about it on here. Though he gifts his allotted tags as is his will just as much as price gouging Texans.

 

[hank4elk]

I think it was only Hank who has property in E-plus and talked about it on here. Though he gifts his allotted tags as is his will just as much as price gouging Texans.

Guilty. My little place is for wildlife.
I will be guilty of using a a tag on my place this year.