Montana muley management

fowl_minded · Oct 6, 2015

Thoughts on the mule deer population now and then. Lots of hunters dream of coming out west whether it's Montana or Nevada to chase mule deer. And even those people that live in that state out west love to hunt mule deer. Over these past few years it seems like the mule deer population has taken a drastic fall. In both population and quality of deer around. I can remember hunting a family farm in eastern Montana and seeing great bucks. I have hunted many public land spot as well. Now it's hard to find really any decent bucks as well as bucks that have potential and that would be great if they lived a couple more years. I have a couple outfitter buddies that have many successful deer hunters that kill deer even though the deer aren't that impressive, though they do kill some good ones. In my public land travels I have seen some good ones taken as well but I have seen a lot of young four and five points and just flat young deer. My question to you guys is management? Taking deer that are of age or a point system which emlimates taking young deer young whether it is a young two or four points? This is not just for Montana but other states as well. I just see and have herd of serious decline in different mule deer populations and I think it is because a lot of hunters just want to fill a tag. I know that winter is hard for deer and some disease but they don't suffer under the same diseases that Whitehall do. Let me know what you think.

fowl_minded · Oct 6, 2015

Correction

I forgot to put in special districts as well. In Montana we have tons of general deer areas but I think we could break it up a little bit better.

raiderbowhunter · Oct 6, 2015

Just had this discussion last week while hunting with a buddy. He was talking about closing mule deer season altogether for a season to let bucks get some age.....I figured they would be an uproar from the bubbas in orange if that was ever even proposed.

Badlandcat · Oct 7, 2015

Muleys need age and protection to get some size on them, something a 5 week general season does not give them.

have gun will travel · Oct 7, 2015

I would not be in favor of a shorter season. But I would go along with antler restrictions. That being said you know the driving force behind everything is money, the state may be afraid to implement such a restriction, for fear of license sale declines.

Imo kids under 16 would be exempt of the restrictions. Recruitment of the next generation is just as important to our sport as anything. This would give kids time to see success, and then learn the importance of conservation before they become adults.

I'm sure there are other sides to this I have not thought of but it is a good topic. How about handicap permits would be exempt of the restrictions as well.

mtmander · Oct 7, 2015

This is a interesting topic, manage for 'trophy'. There are many of my neighbors that do not shoot any animal , deer, elk, unless they are young. So we will have the debate between trophy and meat hunters and ow to satisfy both.

Straight Arrow · Oct 7, 2015

In Montana the North Tobacco Roots Mountains HD 333 closes the antlered mule deer season on November 15th and has for several seasons. I would be interested in finding out if that closure during the rut has resulted in more mature mulie bucks.

belly-deep · Oct 7, 2015

If you want to live in a state with tight restriction on deer hunting, move to one.

Nameless Range · Oct 7, 2015

Straight Arrow said:
In Montana the North Tobacco Roots Mountains HD 333 closes the antlered mule deer season on November 15th and has for several seasons. I would be interested in finding out if that closure during the rut has resulted in more mature mulie bucks.

I always wondered about this as well.

fowl_minded · Oct 7, 2015

I used to hunt a couple districts that closed early and over the past three or four years that have been extended to a regular season. And I have seen it first hand those mule deer get wacked hard ! I know a guy that really all he did was hunt trophy mule deer and rope, he really did consistently kill giant mature 190 to 200 inch deer and after that season was extended it has been tough to find anything of the sorts like he used to. Now most people didn't hunt like this guy either, he was a real quality manager, passing numerous bucks in the 160 to 175 range because they were gonna be something. Just my opinion on the five week season. What do states like Utah Colorado Nevada do?

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 7, 2015

Too often we simply equate inches of antler with quality of management. That's a pretty simplistic and naïve way to look at it.

Duck-Slayer · Oct 7, 2015

I don't live in Montana right now, but grew up in eastern Montana, I think it would be a mistake too change the season's, there are other states and limited draw units there that you have a chance at a mature buck along with many other general units, too even mention Utah, Colorado, and Nevada in the same sentence as Montana is just crazy.... Now Idaho you could compare too Montana, except for the long 5 month general season, maybe they should shorten it 2 weeks and have draws for rut hunts? who know's, seems like if it's not broke there not going too fix it, and if they do, they better be getting the same amount of $ signs, but that's coming from a meat hunter also, I would probably be against any such change if I lived there right now, imo, if you want trophy, hard too draw, wait 20 years too get a good tag go too the 3 states that are mentioned....

Matt

Duck-Slayer · Oct 7, 2015

JLS said:
Too often we simply equate inches of antler with quality of management. That's a pretty simplistic and naïve way to look at it.

x2
Matt

Carnage2011 · Oct 7, 2015

Straight Arrow said:
In Montana the North Tobacco Roots Mountains HD 333 closes the antlered mule deer season on November 15th and has for several seasons. I would be interested in finding out if that closure during the rut has resulted in more mature mulie bucks.

I live in Whitehall and have spent a fair amount of time on the north end of the T Roots. The last two years I have seen a couple very solid deer drop down into the hay fields and chase does after November 15. I have access to three of the larger ranches that border T roots, and one of them has a son that is my age. He mentioned to me this summer that he was seeing a buck above their place that he couldn't believe was in that area. He felt like it was a legitimate 180" deer, and maybe even better than that based on how heavy he was. I really hope they keep the season structure in that area for many years to come to see if the deer keep getting a better chance to grow up.

sbhooper · Oct 7, 2015

I could not care less about antlers, but I would sure kill a big buck if the circumstances and my permit allowed it. I am way more interested in quantity of deer, than I am in how many big bucks there are. If you want the deer to grow up, then the only way is to put a limit on the buck permits. If the herd allows it, then put out plenty of doe permits to satisfy people like me. If the herd is in bad shape, then cut back on the permits-not the season length.

BlakeA · Oct 7, 2015

JLS said:
Too often we simply equate inches of antler with quality of management. That's a pretty simplistic and naïve way to look at it.

X100

Just spoke with multiple biologists and they all seem very positive with the direction of the population and the outlook for the 2015 season. They seem to think people will be surprised with the quality of the bucks that will be taken this year. I'm going to trust the people that do it for a living. Looking forward to November

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 7, 2015

Carnage2011 said:
I live in Whitehall and have spent a fair amount of time on the north end of the T Roots. The last two years I have seen a couple very solid deer drop down into the hay fields and chase does after November 15. I have access to three of the larger ranches that border T roots, and one of them has a son that is my age. He mentioned to me this summer that he was seeing a buck above their place that he couldn't believe was in that area. He felt like it was a legitimate 180" deer, and maybe even better than that based on how heavy he was. I really hope they keep the season structure in that area for many years to come to see if the deer keep getting a better chance to grow up.

The Marias River and Sweetgrass Hills have long closed after three weeks. There is absolutely no doubt that it allows a higher degree of escapement for bucks.

---- · Oct 7, 2015

Here's some ideas of what a restructure could look like. I'm not a wildlife manager and will probably change my mind by lunch, but this makes some sense to me right now-

-Move the general season to something like October 15-31. There's quite a few units that close November 15 right now, and in my opinion that still runs right through the rut. It does save deer from the Thanksgiving day slaughter though. Obviously archery season would have to end October 14th with this proposal. MBA would shit a brick, but they do about everything.

-Create permits for general unit rut hunts for the month of November. These would be unit specific. Right now there is way too many guys applying for too few deer permits, and having these tags would redistribute where people apply for, and still provide opportunity for guys to hunt areas like the breaks during the rut.

***the above two proposals are very similar to how unit 441 is currently managed. I don't know how successful that season structure has been there, can anyone who know that area better than I chime in on it?

-Leave the current season in hard to access units like 150 and 313. That will still give guys the opportunity to hunt rutting deer every year if they are willing to work for it.

- Leave current limited entry units as rut hunts.

-Greatly reduce doe tags. Except for some agriculture areas, I just can't wrap my head around why we need to be killing mule deer does on public land. If people need to fill the freezer there's plenty of cow elk and whitetail doe tags available.

- You could also toy with the idea of having guys choose between a whitetail tag or a mule deer tag. I like how Idaho makes folks choose whitetail only if they want to hunt them in the rut.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with leaving the season structure as is, and just continuing to move units from general, to unlimited, to limited. I fear the problem with mule deer is much bigger than just how our season is structured, and all this is worthless mental gymnastics.

redhub1 · Oct 7, 2015

I'm no expert in quality of, or management of deer populations, but I do try to learn as much as possible. I was surprised to listen to Randy's latest podcast (#007) with Ed Arnett, Senior Biologist at the TRC Partnership about the quality of habitat that we have here in the west. In that podcast he said that hunters and hunting seasons are not a problem for the quality, of or numbers of deer populations. The number one problem is habitat and what we are doing to help, or hurt that habitat. Population, urban sprawl, natural resource development, fires, etc. play much more of a role in what happens to the habitat of mule deer and every other species of wildlife in the ecosystem. The wildlife biologists know what they are doing when it comes to management of the deer season, and I will defer to their knowledge and experience. According to him, they have made great strides in helping those habitats for the last 10 years, and hopefully they can continue the trend.

Gr8bawana · Oct 7, 2015

I grew up tagging along with my dad and brothers here in Nevada. In 1976 Nevada implemented the drawing system and very limited quotas for different areas. of course everybody threw a fit. Before that anybody could just buy a tag at the local bait store and hunt anywhere. The problem was that you could hunt for a week and be hard pressed to see a deer of any kind buck or doe, tag was for either sex.
One way to up the age class of bucks in Montana would be to simply shoot a lot less deer using VERY limited quotas.

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