Either sex: still needs proof of sex!

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

Just FYI
At the MT antelope check station I got a big finger wagged at me the other day. I showed them my quartered antelope. Since I had an either sex tag I didn't leave evidence of sex attached to both rear quarters. Much to my surprise they told me I broke the law! Actually, the head should be attached to the front quarters too if practical.

They gave out a lot of written warnings to people but in my case they just wagged their finger at me since I left EOS on one rear quarter. It's a silly law that none of the FWP staff could give a practical reason for, but it is the current regulation.

I bet this would apply to elk and deer too so keep it in mind and maybe save yourself some embarrassment in front of your kids. It's easy enough to do. Take pictures of the whole animal in the field too.

rg

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

By the way, I left the tube that goes to the penis as EOS on the one side. The warden said the testes should be used since some game wardens might think the skinned penis is, and I quote, "just another hunk of meat." I guess that part isn't covered in the training.

npaden · Oct 20, 2016

I guess I didn't read the regulations carefully enough. I've never caught the "both" part. I thought I was doing good leaving something attached to one of the rear quarters. Wish they would change it like Wyoming did recently to simply "accompanying" and let me throw the "evidence" in a baggie and call it good.

EasternMTHunter · Oct 20, 2016

The regs note that evidence of sex should be left attached to a "portion" of the meat. Unfortunately portion is not defined in the Montana annotated code, at least that we could find. This results in the wardens each having their own definition of portion. Makes the law difficult to follow as one Warden may consider a portion and entire roast and another just a small piece of meat.

FAIR CHASE · Oct 20, 2016

Same goes for black bear. I learned that one the hard way several years ago.

sbhooper · Oct 20, 2016

EasternMTHunter said:
The regs note that evidence of sex should be left attached to a "portion" of the meat. Unfortunately portion is not defined in the Montana annotated code, at least that we could find. This results in the wardens each having their own definition of portion. Makes the law difficult to follow as one Warden may consider a portion and entire roast and another just a small piece of meat.

Sounds like it is open to interpretation, depending on how much that little badge weighs on the warden. Not good.

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 20, 2016

It is illegal to possess or transport the carcass
of any big game animal unless evidence of the
animal’s sex and species remains naturally
attached to its carcass or a portion of the carcass.
• Evidence of an animal’s sex and species must
remain naturally attached until the carcass:
––Is at the final place of storage; or
––Is cut and wrapped in serving size; or
––Is at a commercial meat processing facility; or
––Is at a licensed taxidermist.
• If the head or antlers are removed, evidence of
sex in the form of testicles, penis, scrotum, udder
or vulva must remain naturally attached. For
example, boned out or quartered animals need
evidence of sex naturally attached to a portion
of the meat.

Straight from the regs. There should be no interpretation of "portion" of the carcass. A boned out hindquarter is a "portion" of the carcass.

Rob, was the issue evidence of sex, or evidence of species? You clearly met the requirements of evidence of sex, but if there was no hair/head/hide attached then you may not have had evidence of species attached?

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

EasternMTHunter said:
The regs note that evidence of sex should be left attached to a "portion" of the meat. Unfortunately portion is not defined in the Montana annotated code, at least that we could find. This results in the wardens each having their own definition of portion. Makes the law difficult to follow as one Warden may consider a portion and entire roast and another just a small piece of meat.

Yeah, I just verified the "portion" part. It is easy enough to leave something on both sides so just be careful when you are quartering it so you don't accidentally remove it. Hard to put those things back on...

The regualtion makes sense to me if you had to prove it was a male or female, but I was surprised it applied to either sex.

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 20, 2016

RobG said:
By the way, I left the tube that goes to the penis as EOS on the one side. The warden said the testes should be used since some game wardens might think the skinned penis is, and I quote, "just another hunk of meat." I guess that part isn't covered in the training.

I would talk to his supervisor about that, not to get him in trouble, but to point out that anyone who knows anything about hunting should be able to discern a chunk of wanger from a piece of muscle. Unless he is referring to a "chunk of meat" in the context of a Porky's movie.

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

JLS said:
Straight from the regs. There should be no interpretation of "portion" of the carcass. A boned out hindquarter is a "portion" of the carcass.

Rob, was the issue evidence of sex, or evidence of species? You clearly met the requirements of evidence of sex, but if there was no hair/head/hide attached then you may not have had evidence of species attached?

It was evidence of sex. The hide was still on the front and back quarters. Again I just got a finger wagged at me, not even a written warning, but there are some goofy wardens out there.

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 20, 2016

RobG said:
It was evidence of sex. The hide was still on the front and back quarters. Again I just got a finger wagged at me, not even a written warning, but there are some goofy wardens out there.

Then he is clearly in the wrong, and you should point that out to his immediate supervisor.

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

JLS said:
I would talk to his supervisor about that, not to get him in trouble, but to point out that anyone who knows anything about hunting should be able to discern a chunk of wanger from a piece of muscle. Unless he is referring to a "chunk of meat" in the context of a Porky's movie.

The latest crop apparently can't tell a skinned willy from an ass cheek so they wouldn't get the Porky's reference either

.

The trainee that was there didn't know how to recognize one all skinned out so she got the supervisor. The supervisor just was giving some practical advice to make it easier for everyone.

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

JLS said:
Then he is clearly in the wrong, and you should point that out to his immediate supervisor.

I'll ask the biologist that was there and report back in a couple hours.

Schaaf · Oct 20, 2016

I'm a little busy right now but did I read this right that you are required to leave proof of sex attached to both hindquarters? What the....

noharleyyet · Oct 20, 2016

We bisected the boys and left em on the hinds.

Deleted member 20812 · Oct 20, 2016

Schaaf said:
I'm a little busy right now but did I read this right that you are required to leave proof of sex attached to both hindquarters? What the....

That is incorrect. "A portion" is a singular term. Not sure how they hell they would think that means both hindquarters.

fwagner · Oct 20, 2016

Im 0 - 4 when it comes to keeping the testicles attached while performing the gutless method, somehow I keep messing it up and end up throwing the testicle in the sack. Last October we killed a moose in Idaho and was met by the warden at the trail head. Luckily we were carrying the penis and the testicles by hand so he just laughed it off

!

RobG · Oct 20, 2016

Schaaf said:
I'm a little busy right now but did I read this right that you are required to leave proof of sex attached to both hindquarters? What the....

I just emailed the guy to ask for clarification. I agree that it reads as singular, but it's easy enough to "split the boys" (or girls) and just not have to argue about it. This doesn't seem to be enforced very strictly.

The bigger issue was that it is needed even if you have an either sex tag.

rg

Ben Long · Oct 20, 2016

I wonder how much it would cost to run a DNA test on a suspect piece of meat? Maybe this law is obsolete, given technology. If the warden suspects something is amiss, he can take a sample, check for an X or Y chromosome, and bust the guy later if he was lying. Save everyone a ton of trouble.

npaden · Oct 20, 2016

The rule has never made much sense to me. What is someone going to do, shoot a buck and keep the head but waste all the meat and then shoot a doe and keep all the meat from it?

I think it would be somewhat useful only if someone shoots a female animal and doesn't keep the head, then they should be required to keep some form of evidence of sex, but even then I don't think it really needs to be attached to anything.

But there are a LOT of rules and regulations that don't make sense...

Either sex: still needs proof of sex!

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