Groups getting wider!

Northernlilywhite · Aug 26, 2016

Hi All,
So I am a very new bowhunter and I am getting ready for my first season. I am shooting a Bowtech Carbon Icon at 29in DL and 70-71 draw weight. When I was initially set up I was shooting Easton bloodlines with a 330 spine and a 28 1/4 shaft. I almost immediately switched to 125 FP. Well maybe it was beginners luck but after a couple weeks of walk back tuning, I was pretty comfortable with hitting solid heart and lungs 5/5 from 30 and 4/5 from 40. However I was shooting so much that I was beating up my arrows and I wanted to shoot a heavier shaft so I ordered some Victory V force in a 300 spine at 29 inch (28 1/4 was unsafe in my mind based on my draw and rest). I am right on the edge of needing the 300's on the charts, but since I was shooting 125 FP and BH's, not the 100's that the charts are based on, I decided to go for the stiffer spine. Also I was told that if in doubt to err on the side of stiffer spine.

Well I went on vacation for a week, came back and have shot the new 300 spined longer arrows for 4 nights straight (200 or so shots) and I am about to break my bow over my knee... I am now comfy at 20 but nowhere near the tightness of groups and at 30 I am about 6/8 inches wider in groups now!

I know form is probably a lot of it, and I know I have a long long ways to go with form and repetitions, but it doesn't seem to me that my form deteriorated suddenly. Could the stiffer spine be doing this?

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

Tufrthnails · Aug 26, 2016

Holy smoke 50 shots in a session when first getting back to it is a lot. My money is on fatigue here. My first few sessions when I have a break in shooting is 12 shoots max. If you struggle at all stop you will do a lot more damage to your form over shooting then under shooting.

Northernlilywhite · Aug 26, 2016

Thanks Tuf! That may have something to do with it for sure, however I am taking breaks in between every 12-15 shots and on my weekends I shoot 2-3 times a day to get the volume but have breaks. I definitely think fatigue could cause some strays shots, but it wouldn't explain why I was having no problem with the same volume but with the other shafts...

Tufrthnails · Aug 26, 2016

I don't shoot 125's but I can see where a different combo may not shoot as well as another. I can't say that I have done a lot of testing once I found a combo I stuck with it. I'll be following to see if anyone has any more advise.

Melman · Aug 26, 2016

Tufrthnails said:
Holy smoke 50 shots in a session when first getting back to it is a lot. My money is on fatigue here. My first few sessions when I have a break in shooting is 12 shoots max. If you struggle at all stop you will do a lot more damage to your form over shooting then under shooting.

"target panic" be coming into play some, you might be punching your release. I've recently switched to a thumb release set on the heavier side and its pretty much taken any target panic out of my shooting. also another trick I learned this year was to look past your pin once you get it on target. your pin will always float a little so just look at the target more than the pin. its helped me a lot this year.

Crumb · Aug 26, 2016

Try turning down the weight to like 65 lbs that will help immensely.

HSi-ESi · Aug 26, 2016

I haven't shot those 2 arrows before - but you could have more differences between the 2 arrows other than the spine. I guess I have more questions, such as:

1. Is the O.D. of the 2 arrows the same? Depending on the differences this could be affecting your center-shot.
2. Any fletching contact on the new arrow?
3. Did you do any tuning with the new arrow (paper tune?)
4. If you go back to shooting the 'old arrows', do you group the same as before?

Good luck! Having issues is where you learn the most.

Deleted member 20812 · Aug 26, 2016

I really doubt that it's the arrows. Is there a difference in fletching? Straight, helical, offset? Type of vanes?

50 arrows per night for four days is way too many. Focus on quality, not quantity. Your form will go to shit when fatigue sets in, and I guarantee you are suffering from it, both mentally and physically.

Go shoot five arrows only focusing on making each one a perfect shot and see what happens.

Check your bow to see if anything is loose.

Irrelevant · Aug 26, 2016

I'm going to say it's in your head. After almost a decade of trying to equip and engineer my way to accuracy I've concluded it's all between my ears. Give this a listen. It likely won't actually help, but it may put you at ease with your struggle.
http://www.grittybowmen.com/gritty-...pisode-153-iron-mind-hunting-with-joel-turner

Irrelevant · Aug 26, 2016

HSi-ESi said:
4. If you go back to shooting the 'old arrows', do you group the same as before?

That! If you can go back to your old arrows and your groups instantly tighten back up it's definitely the setup. But I've yet to see stiffer or heavier arrows ever cause significant widening of groups.

Northernlilywhite · Aug 27, 2016

Well I found the answer... I will post photos and info later but just spent the morning shooting probably 20 shots slowly and focused and the v force with the 300 spine (29 inches) shot an ok group at 30 (might be lucky) but poor at 10 and 20. Bloodlines with 340 spine shot (28.25 inches) good at 10,20,30 and Beman White Out 300 (29 inches) shot excellent from 10,20,30. I guess it might not be the spine but the arrow quality and foc, etc. happy to find though that my hunting arrows are shooting the best and the practice are shooting the worst. More photos later on grouping but it's pretty obvious.

Tufrthnails · Aug 27, 2016

Glad to hear you got something figured out. Just my thing but I don't shoot different arrows for practice and hunting. I practice with the same setup as hunting minus the broadheads. That includes lighted nocks. Right or wrong that is just my setup.

Northernlilywhite · Aug 27, 2016

Tufrthnails said:
Glad to hear you got something figured out. Just my thing but I don't shoot different arrows for practice and hunting. I practice with the same setup as hunting minus the broadheads. That includes lighted nocks. Right or wrong that is just my setup.

I definitely will only shoot my hunting arrows for the 7-10 days before the season just to tune up and broadhead tune but I am cheap and don't like banging up and ruining my expensive arrows all summer. I Try and match the spine and gpi but clearly that didn't work this time! If I wasn't so cheap I would definitely shoot the same set up all year.

Tufrthnails · Aug 27, 2016

Northernlilywhite said:
I definitely will only shoot my hunting arrows for the 7-10 days before the season just to tune up and broadhead tune but I am cheap and don't like banging up and ruining my expensive arrows all summer. I Try and match the spine and gpi but clearly that didn't work this time! If I wasn't so cheap I would definitely shoot the same set up all year.

I might be the cheap one my arrow shafts are only $8 each, which by my cousins standards is super cheap, but they work for me.

CJC · Aug 27, 2016

I think you should be shooting your hunting setup all year long. Don't group shoot to save arrows. Practice how you play.

Northernlilywhite · Aug 29, 2016

Ok, so here are the photos from my experiment with the different arrows. All were shot after a day off and these photos show probably 14 out of the first 18 arrows shot (had some warm up shots and a flyer or two).

I think this makes it pretty clear that the V Force Sport just aren't compatible with the bow set up. I was worried it was form (and my form certainly isn't great) but the Bloodlines and Bemans shot almost identical to how they shot a week or two ago. Also I worry that the V Force Sport weren't even grouping differently but still somewhat reliably. They just are consistent only in their inconsistency.

Easton Bloodline: 28.25 inches, 330 Spine, 8.7 GPI
Victory V Force Sport: 29 inches, 300 Spine, 9.9 GPI
Beman White Out: 29 inches, 300 Spine, 9.6 GPI

Photo 1: Bloodline and V Force from 10 yards
Photo 2: Bloodline and V Force from 20 yards
Photo 3: Bloodline and V force from 30 yards
Photo 4: Beman White Out from 20 yards
Photo 5: Beman White Out from 30 yards

Brad Daniel · Aug 29, 2016

neffa3 said:
I'm going to say it's in your head. After almost a decade of trying to equip and engineer my way to accuracy I've concluded it's all between my ears. Give this a listen. It likely won't actually help, but it may put you at ease with your struggle.
http://www.grittybowmen.com/gritty-...pisode-153-iron-mind-hunting-with-joel-turner

That was a great podcast. I've been shooting back tension for about 25 years now, even have to hunt with back tension release as my brain just will not function properly with a punch-o-matic. I'm sure Joel's methods could help plenty of people.

Deleted member 20812 · Aug 29, 2016

I really doubt you are saving much money, if any by shooting different arrows during the summer. There is being cheap and there is being silly.

Put some spot stickers on your target and don't group shoot, like was stated above.

Did you bareshaft tune the .300 spine arrows? For some reason, I'm having a hard time believing that you would see a marked difference at 30 yards with these different arrows, assuming the bow is tuned and your form is correct.

Northernlilywhite · Aug 29, 2016

JLS said:
I really doubt you are saving much money, if any by shooting different arrows during the summer. There is being cheap and there is being silly.

Put some spot stickers on your target and don't group shoot, like was stated above.

Did you bareshaft tune the .300 spine arrows? For some reason, I'm having a hard time believing that you would see a marked difference at 30 yards with these different arrows, assuming the bow is tuned and your form is correct.

Hey JLS. Agreed on the cheap vs silly, but I was trying to get a decent amount of shooting done, had just laid out some serious cash, etc. But I have definitely learned that I should be working with what I hunt based on the results I had this time around. Won't be doing that again. I do also have a target with spots that I use, but just didn't bother with it for this test.

As far as tuning for the 300 (V Force) itself, I tuned the bow to the bloodlines originally, then began to shoot and struggled to tune to the V Force. Inconsistency was an issue all along. I am a beginner so this may not be correct, but how do you tune for arrows that are high and right 4 inches, then low and left 3 inches, then level but right 5 inches? I just couldn't get a group so I had no idea how to adjust for these erratic results. I even began to shoot just one arrow from the bunch and this helped a bit in getting that arrow to hit in the same place, but try picking up three of the V force and shooting a group was impossible. The photos actually show some of the better shots I achieved with those arrows!!

Also I shot one V force, then one bloodline and every single time the bloodline was better grouping than the V force. It would be pretty insane odds that I shot poorly every time I had a V Force nocked and shot well every time I had a bloodline nocked.

I did notice one other thing, the V Force arrows fishtailed bad. A same spined arrow (the Beman White Out) didn't do this.

My guess is this... The V Force are a cheap arrow with worse tolerances. The bloodlines are a much higher quality carbon, tighter tolerances and the Beman are also much high quality arrows. I am guessing I got a bad bunch of an already cheap arrow, and it shot like hell with my bow. I don't know any other way of explaining decent accuracy/reliability with two other arrows types in the same session and then just completely terrible results with the V Force.

Also a side note, all arrows were fletched with blazer vanes at right offset.

Deleted member 20812 · Aug 29, 2016

Depends on how you were trying to tune. Bareshaft? Paper? Broadhead?

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