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Feds and red snapper management

Florida

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I've been looking for an opportunity to discuss some reasons that I think state management of lands could provide a benefit. First things, I am not a troll and I do not want all of our federal lands sold to private owners. I understand the argument for Federal management and respect them. There are a few issues that prevent me from being completely on board with the don't mess with our lands crowd. I'll probably bring each issue up in a separate thread to keep things clean.

Please read this article from the TCRP.
http://blog.trcp.org/2016/06/21/a-taste-of-the-nine-day-gulf-red-snapper-season/

Obviously the article isn't about lands, but it does address the issue of state vs federal management. The state is fighting the federal government for more access to our resources. In some places the snapper are so thick, you can't catch other species because they bite too quickly. This results in alot of bycatchand unfortunately many of the released fish do not survive. Red snapper are competing for the same food and other species, like grouper, are suffering. Fishing is a big industry here in FL and people spend hundreds of dollars to make a single trip offshore. Most of these trips are not catch and release, or at least they are not intended to be.

I think polititians are much more accountable on a local level and the states providing better science and fighting for more access on behalf of there residents is a good example of this. For the sake of this argument let's set aside the possibility of selling federal land to private holders. What are your thought on this?
 
Sorry I don't have an links, but I have a friend who is a senior scientist at MOTE Marine Laboratory and he is horrified with how the state is managing the waters right now. It is coming to a head this year with huge algae blooms and a very grim future unless they start treating the gulf differently than a toilet.
 
I've seen some of this first hand. Last time we were out it was the long face of my then 10 year old as a mate released his first salt water fish, a nice 5-6 pound red snapper. This action was accompanied by a comment from the captain over the loud speaker of "a damned shame"....

I'm not going to pretend to know much of anything about the situation in the gulf. I tend to trust scientist and biologist. I just don't see where they have reason to lie. I also know you are right that sport fishing is "industry" in Florida. I also know that industry has a history of taking what they can when they can with little thought of the future.

If there really is a reason to make changes I see nothing wrong with working through your reps on a federal level to make it right. I also take issue with your assertion that states provide better science as far as species management. Any more state DNR's are subject to the legislature, science and best practices be damned. There's a reason the Feds manage waterfowl and it's not just because they're international travelers.
 
Thanks for the response. RobG, I looked around the mote website and couldn't find anything regarding state management. I believe there is an issue right now with the draining of Lake Okeechobee and the effects on the surrounding farm land and estuaries. I know it's a complicated issue and I'm not informed enough to form a strong opinion.

Mplane, I understand what you are saying about biases and political motivations, but I don't think they are exclusive to the state or federal level. I think our founding fathers were pretty smart in giving power to the states where we can have more representatives.

Good points guys. Food for thought.
 
Dr. Aaron Adams is his name - I see he is Florida Institute of Tech now (and also the Bonefish and Tarpon Trust), but this isn't work related. Here's one of many articles he has posted on his Facebook page. http://www.tcpalm.com/opinion/edito...db-b8ea-5765-e053-0100007f45e6-384580911.html

I asked Aaron about the snapper thing. He said he is purposely ignoring it but stocks are rebounding thanks to federal protection. I looked briefly and the short season seems to have been caused by a lawsuit from the commercial snapper fisherman. Lots of fish and wildlife is a common problem with federal management ;)

The author's name Macaluso sounded familiar so I looked and, yes, he is the brainless right-wing zealot that tried to pick a fight with me over on Hal Herring's Facebook page the other day. I don't know what his problem is, but it's probably a consequence of Louisiana's inbreeding epidemic. After what I saw I'm not sure why TRCP would give him a voice, but maybe he cleans up well for the office and shows thinking ability. I'd be careful in interpreting his political views.
 
If you have Facebook this guy shows some pretty ugly stuff about how the sugar industry is affecting the gulf. This isn't the same old "old" story - it is really reaching a head this year. https://www.facebook.com/shallowwatermark?fref=nf&pnref=story

green water.jpg


Here's Aaron (speaking for BTT) giving a broader overview and how fish like Tarpon need different habitats throughout their life. https://www.facebook.com/bonefishtarpontrust/videos/1319159288098950/

[edit: I can't seem to link directly to the video so click on the "Fix Our Water" Video]
 
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Unless and until a virtue is made of necessity (tip o the hat to Aldo), I think there is a correlation between distance and objectivity/long-term thinking. Ancillary to that proposition is a correlation between closeness and subjectivity/short-term thinking (i.e. greed).

Some cultures have already made a virtue of necessity (7th Generation thinking). But our culture has made a virtue of "me" and "now", notwithstanding all the lip service we pay to our children and their children, etc.

Thus, our best, objective, long-term decision-making is often made by those who are further from the front lines, and who don't have an immediate pecuniary interest in the outcome of the contest. The distance is not merely physical; D.C. is a long way away but many of the turds there represent those who are back home, or who stand to make a killing. But the distance is also intellectual (see below).

The older I get, the more I see how adults are not really all that different from children. If you cordoned off the Mall Of America and turned a bunch of kids loose in there, unsupervised, ala "Lord of the Flies", then you would have, essentially, what we have where "God" turned us loose in this Garden of Earth. Who is better to decide how the Mall should be handled? Those kids within it, or some outside adult who can see the whole picture?

We aren't stewards of S; especially when cold, thirsty and hungry. After those needs are sated, we start in on greed, power and politics. Some day we will find ourselves stewards of S; that is all that will be left.

Unfortunately, there can be a lack of care, by some, for those things which are not personally close to them. Many an urbanite could care less about what they own in the hinterlands. But that's only because they are uneducated. It inures to the benefit of some to keep them that way. The greedy are quick to point out that urban heat doesn't come from the radiator, but slow to describe the true cost of it.

In the end, though, it all matters naught so long as we continue to breed like rabbits.
 
Rob, I checked into the links and I think your perspective seems rather one-sided. The article you presented stated that they don't know the cause of the algae or even the species, but then it went on to blast Rick Scott and big sugar for causing it. I appreciate your perspective, and while your conclusion could be correct, it seems more politically motivated, than scientific in nature.

James, I might be stick in the shallow end in regards to your comments, but I agree that as the population expands, so will our challenges in conservation. I will always put my fellow man first when forced with a decision. As for the Mall of America, I think God has the best perspective on the situation.
 
I will always put my fellow man first when forced with a decision.

What do you do when your fellow man is a greater threat to your fellow man than, say, anything else?

There is a time to kill. We might be able to avoid that by limiting the numbers of our fellow man in educated ways. But, either way, there is the easy way, and there is the hard way. As Robert Service said, "The wild will win in the end."
 
Florida - that was just a story I picked at random from several. I've known Aaron for more than 20 years and he has never been an alarmist. He'd rather study tarpon, bonefish and snook biology and write books related to catching them, but this issue has him and a lot of others speaking up.
 
What do you do when your fellow man is a greater threat to your fellow man than, say, anything else?

I'm going to let God Almighty sort that out (and when the time comes, He will). You might have a different name for it, but genocide is not in my toolkit to solve the world's problems.
 
Florida - that was just a story I picked at random from several. I've known Aaron for more than 20 years and he has never been an alarmist. He'd rather study tarpon, bonefish and snook biology and write books related to catching them, but this issue has him and a lot of others speaking up.

I could tell by the facebook posts and article. I'd be upset too if the water in my area looked as bad as those pictures. I think the passion needs to be pointed at solving the problem (or waiting it out) rather than just pointing the finger (not speaking of your friend specifically).
 
I could tell by the facebook posts and article. I'd be upset too if the water in my area looked as bad as those pictures. I think the passion needs to be pointed at solving the problem (or waiting it out) rather than just pointing the finger (not speaking of your friend specifically).
I agree and Aaron would be the first to tell you that, but it seems like a lot of public awareness is needed to convince the Governor and others to take some action. I'm as apathetic as everyone else on this particular issue and I need to send a note to the governor, but he really needs to hear from his voters. Send him a note that what you are reading concerns you even if you aren't convinced of the guilty parties.
 
Obviously the article isn't about lands, but it does address the issue of state vs federal management. The state is fighting the federal government for more access to our resources. In some places the snapper are so thick, you can't catch other species because they bite too quickly. This results in alot of bycatchand unfortunately many of the released fish do not survive. Red snapper are competing for the same food and other species, like grouper, are suffering. Fishing is a big industry here in FL and people spend hundreds of dollars to make a single trip offshore. Most of these trips are not catch and release, or at least they are not intended to be.



What do you think the State would do to solve this "problem" you are concerned with? What would be the motive of the State in this issue?



What do you think is the reason for the Fed's "actions", or inactions on this problem? What is the motive behind the Feds in this issue?
 
I'm going to let God Almighty sort that out (and when the time comes, He will). You might have a different name for it, but genocide is not in my toolkit to solve the world's problems.

It seems a little incongruous to "let go and let God" when it comes to fellow man posing a threat to fellow man, yet always always putting fellow man first when forced with a decision.

Maybe God works through fellow man and you should let go and let God in every case? Would you say God sides with the States and against the Feds? Would God side with the pecuniary interests of your fellow man, and if so, which fellow men? Is God interested merely in survival, say food, clothing and shelter alone? Or would He like to see commercial fishermen have air conditioning, new F250s, an annual trip to Disney Land and other luxuries at the expense of an entire species of fish? How do you come down on that question?

Anyway, limiting population in educated ways does not necessarily equate to genocide. It can be quite the opposite, in fact. Do you think the quantity of fellow man population is more important than the quality of their lives? Is it genocide to merely stop breeding like rabbits?
 
RobG, BFTT sounds like a good initiative.

Side note, Gov. Rick Scott is no saint in my mind, I just don't think every problem needs to be blamed on the political leader of the party opposing yours. Rick Scott is no more responsible for the algae bloom than President Obama is responsible for the Orlando massacre.
 
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