Welfare Rancher Builds Problem Fence

A welfare rancher has built a six to seven strand high tensile electrified fence on Forest service, BLM, and Montana state lands in S. W. Montana. The rancher (TEI) has put in many miles of this fence. The problem is, is that it bisectssummer and winter range for deer, elk, and the recently established Greenhorn sheep herd. This fence has been detering the free movement of these animals. More information can be found in the latest issue of Wild Sheep magazine.

Paul

Paul,

You ever seen the 7 strand fence? I've never seen a 7 strand fence on the Snowcrest.

Go down and look at the fences you're bitching about, also notice all the wildlife that jumps over them every day. Also, feel free to touch any of them, the electricity is rarely, if ever, on.

Oh, and why would the sheep want to jump the fences, you told all of us that those sheep transplanted in the Greenhorns were the ones that never migrate. Remember?

If they do migrate onto state or fs leases, they'll be shot anyway, by another welfare rancher, so who cares? I'd rather see them starve than have a welfare rancher plug them on the Robb/Ledford WMA.

Transplanting those sheep was a waste of money, effort, and time.

Get off the porch, and go look for yourself.

I figured Buzz Boy would give this Welfare Rancher a pass. How about you Ithaca?

According to the article, the ranch manager indicated that they intend to modify the fence to a more wildlife freindly design, but do not have the funds at this time to accomplish this. Sounds to me like there is a problem with this fence.

Paul

The best way to test electric fences is to go piss on them. Will let you know if it is on faster than any other way.

WYOTIM,

I don't know if I would say thats the "best" way. Dumbest maybe.

Paul

BHR, Well, what are you going to do about the fence? You're the one who always seems happy when wildlife loses. You constantly defend anyone or anything that takes away wildlife habitat. You think it's a good thing when welfare ranchers are allowed to shoot bighorns on WMAs.

Now you're upset about a illegal little fence that's only going to stop a few hundred or couple thousand animals from migrating to a place where they can survive the winter?

Why don't you just start a petition to allow the welfare rancher to shoot them all?

Whatever you do, don't breach the fence!

Paul,

I worked on the ranch in question for 3 years, to my knowledge the electric fence was never on. I also never saw 7 strand fences in that 3 years either.

I know the ranch manager, worked with him alot.

I'll be in Missoula this Wednesday hunting whitetails until the end of the season. After that, I'll be free to take a road trip with you to the ranch in question. We can meet with the ranch manager, Dave Dixon, and we can take a tour of the place. I'll show you some wildlife hopping those fences with glee.

I'll drive, buy the fuel, and even spring for breakfast at the bakery in Sheridan Montana.

If we get to arguing too much, I-90 has plenty of room so we could stop and slug it out a couple times. I'll still take you to the ranch though, even if we have loose teeth and fat lips. I'm sure Dave would get a chuckle when we arrive with battle scars.

Also, I was wondering how many welfare ranchers you know who have done more for wildlife than TEI????

Also, I was wondering how many welfare ranchers you know who have done more for wildlife than TEI????

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Buzz, there are some problems I have with that statement. For example; how many ranchers have the luxury of worrying about wildlife first, suppose TEI ever worries if they will be in business next year if their operating loan doesn't come through, I doubt it. Also how many of the "common" people get hunting access to this property, NONE. So what good does all the babitat in the world do if only the wealthy get to hunt or enjoy it. If that is the model you prefer and encourage I guess the rest of us should just join PETA and put an end to hunting. In addition TEI has worked tirelessly to deny access to any inholdings of state and federal lands, They traded the state land but only consolidated the holding of TEI to deny access to anyone who can't drop $10,000 on a hunt. They patrol the property lines to keep the animals on their property, I have seen it myself. They don't even like fisherman who legally access up the high water mark to fish the Madison. So before you promote TEI as the ideal land owner and super champion of wildlife you may want to consider what else comes along with such land owners. They have a right to do what they want with their own property but I am willing to bet TEI takes more then the average ranchers from the coffers of the federal government. So they are no better the the guy with 200 pairs running on leased BLM land.

Nemont

Buzz,

When do you work?

The ranch manager Dave admits the fence is a problem. You can call him at 406-782-2382 and give him some donations or encouragement to fix the problem.

I really don't have a beef with Teddy, other than he needs to quit tell everyone else how they should be doing things. I also can't figure out why he can't come up with the money to solve this problem. Maybe he needs to sell a few more canned Bison hunts. Maybe he's still licking his wounds from when his AOL Time/ Warner stock took the big shitter. Maybe he's decided to move on to a new hobby, and now his ranches need to start making him a profit. I don't know. I do know that it's all about Ted.

Paul

Here's a quote from Buzz from another thread that seems appropriate in this one too.

"I dont think hunters realize the influence they can have. I've seen guides/outfitters, ranchers, etc. run rough-shod over game and fish agencies and management all over the west. The reason is complacency by average sportsmen...and the ranchers, outfitters, etc. are organized and they flat get things accomplished in their favor. I give them credit for looking out for themselves, I'd just think that eventually the average sportsman would get tired of getting crapped on by these groups who dont represent their interests."

Good points Buzz.

Paul

Nemont,

Not wanting to pick on you, but you're flat assed wrong on many counts here.

I was like you for a long time in regard to TEI and types like them. That is until you see the truth.

For starters, check out the hunting regs, you'll notice that TEI allows a couple bull tags to disabled or youth on the flying D. I grant you that isnt much, but its more than they are required to do...which is nothing. Also, if you look closer, there are lots of late cow tags given out for the flying D to anyone that cares to apply.

I also know that the other ranches TEI has, allow antlerless WT hunting to the public and at least one of the ranches also allows youth hunters to harvest smaller WT bucks. The problem is though, most dont even bother to ask, and you'd have to shoot a doe on your A-tag. But, if you wanted a great experience for a young hunter, you'd be hard pressed to find an area any better.

The other part you're not taking into account is the fact that the bigger bulls and bucks leave TEI property and stray onto public land. The public lands surrounding these areas are good hunting for the hunters willing to put forth the effort and time.

The problem is, you're short sighted and since you can't drive down a TEI ranch road and dust a big 6-point out of the truck, they're bastards for charging and not letting you hunt for free. How many other ranchers, guides, etc. charge people to hunt in MT? I guess TEI is the only one?

On that land swap....

The State of Montana got a 2-1 deal on that. The State gained 2 sections adjoining the Robb/Ledford WMA for the one section in the middle of the Flying D. Not a bad swap, as the public does have access to the 2 sections, but would have never had access to the one section on the D. A little research on that, and I guarantee there are some good whitetail bucks to be had on those state sections...I've seen some dandies...during hunting season. Plus, adding 2 sections to winter range can hardly be seen by anyone who cares about wildlife as a bad deal.

If you want to talk about denying access to inholdings...again, there are plenty of welfare ranchers throughout the West doing the same thing...in fact, I ran into a couple this weekend in Wyoming. You may want to check into Denny Rehbergs background in that department as well...I recently read about a shady-assed deal he did to deny access to state land. Great people you have representing your right to access public lands.

Whether or not you like TEI and others like them, there is no denying the quality of the wildlife and the wildlife management on those ranches. They do good things for wildlife...from big-game to fish to predators to endangered species. Theres a lot worse things that TEI could be doing with their money.

I figure them caring about wildlife may offset the dozens of welfare ranchers who would rather see every piece of wildlife gone from their property and their federal and state leases.

I think you may need to meet up with Paul and I so you get the facts straight...

Paul,

I guess thats a "no" on the invite??? Hell, the trip would be worth it just to look at the big WT bucks...

When do I work?

Not during hunting season....

Buzz,

The only reason that Ted gives out youth bull tags on his land is because MT FWP cornered him on it. Ask any FWP guy how easy Ted is to work with. I'm sure the ranch managers are much better people to be around than Ted. They do have a boss to answer to however.

Paul

BHR, Here's the way to deal with fences that stop animals from migrating. First of all, you have to understand it's not that big of a problem. Some animals (maybe 2 or 3 percent) will be able to get thru the fence and survive. Don't worry about the rest of them that die. Next, get the taxpayers to spend billions of dollars on a game farm system so you can raise millions of antelope, deer, elk and bighorns and turn them loose to supplement the wild herds. You people in Montana won't be able to tell the difference between pen raised animals and wild ones, so that won't be a problem. If you raise and release millions of animals every year and a few thousand actually survive after they are turned loose you should be happy with such great results. The few farm raised animals that survive will be plenty for you people in Montana to hunt. Forget all about helping the economy by having such terrific hunting that people will come from all over the country to hunt.

Fences and dams that prevent migrations are a sign of progress and they are needed if a few businesses in the private sector are going to make a profit. We can't be concerned about animals or fish or the economy that is built on hunting and fishing or recreation.

In fact, maybe you should build high fences all over Montana. I don't see what the problem is.

Paul,

I know the deal with the FWP and TEI, and I agree with you. On the other hand, they also have worked together for the good of wildlife in many cases, true?

However, Nemont said, "you know how many common folk hunt TEI ranches, NONE".

I was pointing out that Nemont is full of crap on that point, thats all. Nemont is usually pretty up-to-speed on a majority of what he says, just not this.

Oh, and how do you know how Ted is to deal with? Ever met him or dealt with him?

Ithaca,

You quote: "You people in Montana won't be able to tell the difference between pen raised animals and wild ones, so that won't be a problem. If you raise and release millions of animals every year and a few thousand actually survive after they are turned loose you should be happy with such great results."

This reminds me of the kooky lady who decided to turn loose her several dozen goats in Skalkaho creek so they could be "free". The problem is, is that there is a herd of wild sheep in that drainage that have reintroduced themselves all their own from neighboring herds. The results could have been disastorous for the wild sheep, but luckly they weren't. The FWP had a no limit feral goat hunt for awhile until the problem was solved.

I guess all this proves is there is a lot of stupid people out there we need to deal with and educate. It's a never ending battle.

Paul

Buzz,

You ask: "On the other hand, they also have worked together for the good of wildlife in many cases, true?" Yes. I particularly like the shock thearapy sessions they were conducting on the bad wolves a few years ago!

I have never met Ted. All my knowledge is second hand so I'll shut up now.

Paul

Buzz,

So what if they let the commoners on to hunt cows and does. I shot a cow elk on the
Flying D in 1993 because we lived on wild game while I was in college, also just about everybody I hunted with hunted cows there because it was a guarantee. Don't pretend that TEI is doing any great thing for the average hunter there. They simply want the commoners to thin out there over population of cow elk which is fine. It kept my family in meat for quite a while. So they own 140,000 acres , just on the Flying D, and out of guilt they let a couple of bulls and some whitetail does get hunted. Big deal. I actually could careless if TEI denies access private deeded land. My issue is that you think anything TEI does has something to do with the average rancher and making a living with ranching.

If you want to talk about denying access to inholdings...again, there are plenty of welfare ranchers throughout the West doing the same thing...in fact, I ran into a couple this weekend in Wyoming. You may want to check into Denny Rehbergs background in that department as well...I recently read about a shady-assed deal he did to deny access to state land. Great people you have representing your right to access public lands

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WTF does Denny Rehberg have to do with this discussion. I personally don't care for him. I have worked with his aides and with his office when he was Racicot's LT on health care. and don't care for the guy.

The problem is, you're short sighted and since you can't drive down a TEI ranch road and dust a big 6-point out of the truck, they're bastards for charging and not letting you hunt for free. How many other ranchers, guides, etc. charge people to hunt in MT? I guess TEI is the only one?

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Sometimes you are so full of yourself that you make some really stupid statements. You don't know me. So go #*^@#* yourself with bullshit statements like that. I have not said anything to put down your hunting ethics or you down, personally, in anyway. Tell me where I said TEI is the only one denying access. All I said is that if that is the model you prefer then don't be surprised if the rest of the commoners join PETA to put an end to hunting. Tell me where I said I wanted to drive down a road and dust a bull. You are the one always harping on welfare ranchers while you are pimping yourself out to the Ted Turners of the world thinking that because you worked on a Billionaire's ranch you know it all regarding cattle ranching and making a living at it. You do know alot about wildlife management and public lands policy as well as hunting but with that statement quoted above I finally see you as the true asshole you are.

If you think TEI and wealthy ranchers are the answer to the west's habitat, access and hunting issues that is your opinion.

Nemont

BHR, I'm tired of reading all these "Sky is Falling" posts of yours. It's all progress. There's nothing you can do about it. Give up.

I don`t know anything about this subject except buzz is an arrogant prick