Quality Binoculars -- Information Wanted

[JoseCuervo]

I have always assumed my next pair of Binoculars would be Swarovski 8x56's SLC. A buddy has them, and they are incredible glasses to look through.

But, as the price is VERY steep $1400+, and the reason I need new glasses is that I left mine out in the woods, somewhere. I thought maybe I should be more prudent with my money, until I learn to be more careful with where I sit my stuff down, while glassing, eating lunch.

Does anybody have any suggestions on binoculars, full size. No compacts. And high quality lenses. Experience with any of the European ones (Zeiss, Docter, Steiner, etc..) would be helpful, or the high end Japanese (Fujinon?)

I am thinking 8, 9, 10x, with the biggest exit pupil I can get. I like to watch Elk when they are sleeping, in the dark timber...

Thanks,
smilies/elkgrin.gif Elkgrinner....

[1_pointer]

John Barsness really touts on the Pentax WCF/WP's. He says they are within an gnats hair of the Leica's and Swaro's and are MUCH cheaper. Here's a link to a board with alot of optics discussions:
Optics (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB36)

SWFA has them for for $340 for 8X32 and $400 for 8X42.
SWFA (http://www.swfa.com/binoculars/pentax/index.html)

[Washington Hunter]

I got the Pentax DCF-WP's, in 8x42 last summer for $325, then got a $100 rebate from Pentax. I don't know if the rebate is still available, but you might check on it. For $225, you can't beat 'em.

[JoseCuervo]

WH and 1Ptr... Thanks for the comments. The glasses I lost were Pentax, and they were pretty good. I remember seeing the $100 rebate last fall, but didn't have the time to investigate, and now it looks like it is gone.

I'll keep looking at them, and see if there are any other 8x glasses.

smilies/elkgrin.gif

[schmalts]

Any pair of binos over 300$ are decent. But you can still see the difference between them and a 900$ pair. Check out the cahles or doctors. Also nikons high end binos are better than the ziess.

[Muledeer4me]

Elkgunner,did you find you a pair of bino's yet?
Steve and both use Swarovski 8X30 ,I love these bino's smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
They are easy to pack around ,and when put on a tripod I can glass all day without getting eye strain.
We hike alot so weight was an issue for us.

I didnt think there would be that much difference in quilty when so when Steve first bought his I thought he was nut's smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif but after compairing them out in the field ,I went home from that scouting trip and bought me a pair.
Steve thought I should put in this disclamer---if you guy's hunt with your wife or girlfriend ,don't go bragging on how much better your gear is then her's ,it could cost you more money
smilies/wink.gif

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-26-2003 07:17: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>

[JoseCuervo]

MD,

Thanks for the info. I am already convinced that Swarvo's are the way to go. I bid up a pair of 8x56SL's on Ebay on Monday, before time ran out. These glasses are awesome, but they are heavy, and some other bidder had deeper pockets than I. I moved them $100+ in the last 2 minutes, so some seller liked me.

I want to keep the larger exit pupil, than the 8x30's. So I think I am in the 8x56 group.

I want to find out, who in Boise, where somebody has some Kahles, so I can try them. They might be ok.

My other choice might be Zeiss 10x40 Classics. I don't worry too much about the weight on binoculars, as I will gladly skimp anywhere else, for having good glass. I'll carry fewer bullets, if needed. Let's just say, "I have seen the Light" and I believe in quality glass, and the "Light" is much easier to see with a German set of glasses.
smilies/elkgrin.gif

[Oak]

Wow, it's rare to see someone else who doesn't care about the weight so much! I would definately suggest getting a pair with an exit pupil of at least 5mm. Your eye can only utilize light from an exit pupil up to the size your iris will dilate to. At age 20, the average iris will dilate 7mm-8mm, so you would see the benefit of an exit pupil up to 7mm or so. By age 50, most irises will only dilate to 5mm or so. So by then, you'll only utilize the light from an exit pupil size up to 5mm.

I've got a pair of Zeiss Night Owls (equivilent to the current Victory series) in 10x56 and love them, even though they weigh nearly 3lbs. If you really want light, I'd avoid the Zeiss 10x40's, simply because you'd only have an exit pupil of 4mm.

BTW, I really like the Burris Signature Series as well. I bought a pair of the 10x50's as a gift, and really wanted to keep them for myself! Good quality AND less weight. I think they only weigh about 27oz., which is pretty good for a pair that size. Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

Oak

[1_pointer]

I've been impressed with the Minox binos I've looked at in Sportsman's Warehouse. They are owned by Leica. I couldn't see the difference in quality to correlate to the higher price of the Leica's.

[kiwi hunta]

I use zeiss they are very fine focousing though, so even looking 30 yds further requires a minute adjustment but clarity and dawn dusk veiwing is very good, Minox scored top in a comparison with other top glasses in a review over here.

[JoseCuervo]

I stopped by Sportsman's Warehouse, and I will go on record as saying, I am so glad they came to town a few years back.

I was able to look at Swarvos, Leica, Zeiss, Kahles at the same time. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. It is kind of like picking your favorite child, you love them all.....

I did look at the high-end Pentax 8x42's, and they are quite good, but I don't know that they are quite like the Germans. I will probably look through some more Pentax, just to be sure, as I liked my old Pentax, that I lost, which puts me on this quest.

The salesman did show me some Bausch&Laumb Elite and Discovery series. The Elites were quite good, and I really didn't have B&L on my radar scope.

Our store did not have Minox in anything but the compact series, so I didn't look at them.

I think the ones that I want to look at some more, are the Kahles. They seemed quite good, and about 2/3 the price of the big 3. It has been interesting watching my budget creep up..... smilies/eek.gif

If anybody is killing time in an optics shop, look at some Kahles, and give me your observations. IT is kind of tough, do you take the easy way out, and buy Swarvo/Zeiss or do you find the gem, and take the Kahles? Or yet another glass (Minox/Fujinon/etc...)
smilies/elkgrin.gif

[1_pointer]

Kahles are good! I will say that, but the Minox just felt better to me. I think Kahles are made by Swarovski aren't they? Personally, I don't see the $3-400 of the 'big' three. Granted they are a bit better, but not 1/3 or more better.

[Muledeer4me]

Elkgunner,I think a friend of our's has a pair of Kahles.
I'll ask Steve tonight.
I hear you on spending the money on GOOD optic's.
Steve ,has been wanting to buy a bigger pair of swarovski's (as calif.hunter pointed out it's that age thing creeping up) smilies/eek.gif

I have tryed Zeiss and liked them.
I have to say if I was to loose my swarovski while out hunting ,I would go to the closes town and buy another pair.
Im sold on the higher end glass.
One thing that really help's ,take the one's your are thinking about buying and go outside to try them out.
It make's a big difference.

[schmalts]

Has anyone looked at the doctors? i never looked through a pair of the roof prisms yet.
I do have a pair of 15X60 porros for spotting and LOVE THEM

[JoseCuervo]

Schmaltz,

I looked thru Docters a few years back, in Singapore. They seemed good, but I did not have other brands to compare with, so I can't say they were better or worse. I don't know if anybody carries them in town.

Oak,
It looks like it will be difficult to buy heavy binoculars. It looks like the makers are making them smaller, perhaps due to technology, perhaps due to the amount of volume the compacts have. Swarvo has a series with an alloy (magnesium?), that is reducing weight even more. I don't think any pair I end up with will weigh even close to the Swarvo 8x56SLs that I have carried before.

And one nice thing on heavy binoculars is, when you sit down to glass, they are steady. The light ones seem to bounce with each breath.

I keep looking. I am going to have to convince the guy at Sportsman's Warehouse to let me take $4000 of his binoculars out in the parking lot at dusk, and see which pair I like.

smilies/elkgrin.gif

[Oak]

EG,
Yep, they're definately getting lighter, which is good! I was just saying that the weight never stopped me (which is what my high school buddies used to say about me smilies/eek.gif ). The heavy ones are definately steady, especially when you're winded from carrying them up the hill! smilies/wink.gif

Oak

[jimmyd223]

Only one-- 10X42 Leica smilies/biggrin.gif

[JoseCuervo]

I was just the high bidder on Ebay for some 10x40 Zeiss Classics, at $510. smilies/smile.gif But the minimum was $550. smilies/frown.gif
The guy emailed, and said he would work with me. Now I have to decide if used/great condition Zeiss are better than similar Kahles from Samplelist.com.

[danr55]

Doctir Optik was originally called Carl Zeiss-Jena... Prior to the onset of the Red Skurge, they were the Eastern branch of Zeiss optik that we all know so well. The quality of thier product is equivalent to Zeiss and many other of Europes finest.

As to the Zeiss/Leica debate,, if you have a choice and the money is equivalent, stick with the Leicas. They are a tad lighter than Zeiss and have better low light performance qualities.

smilies/cool.gif

[Jack O'Conner]

You will always hear the line "buy the best you can afford, then spend twice that amount". That's fine if you're from back east and make $100 grande a year.

But lots of westerners like myself are making a less-than-ideal income. Yet we enjoy some of the best big game hunting on the planet.

My Bushnell 7 X 35's cost me $29. at Country General 9 years ago and they're good ones. I'll not be trading up to anything else.

Oh, and my mulie stopper is a 94 Winchester angle-eject model fitted with a 2X-7X $179.-at-Cabela's Leupold scope. My rig costs a fraction of what many guys use and it works quite well. 30-30 rules!

My point is that a guy can spend a bundle on equipment and still not get within good shooting distance. It still takes hunting and shooting skills to topple that animal and too much reliance on spendy equipment is dumb.
Jack smilies/tongue.gif

[Greenhorn]

Thanks for the tips on dumb spending Jack.

[Big Sky]

Hey Jacks Hole'Conner, how about posting some photos of those giant mule deer bucks your thutty-thutty/$29.00 Bushnell Combo produces? And don't give that lame excuse about not having any photos, or a scanner, or not knowing anyone with a scanner. Even in South Dakota they have cameras and scanners. Your daddy isn't your brother by any chance is he?

[BuzzH]

I sure wish I'd of run into Jack and his quality advise sooner....

[jackfish]

I think anyone purchasing binoculars should try to evaluate the Eagle Optics Platinum Class Ranger roof prism binoculars. $100 rebate until May 31, 2003. They are carried by Wild Birds Unlimited where one can look through them. They have stores in Coeur d'Alene, Spokane and Polson. Info is at the Eagle Optics website, http://www.eagleoptics.com

I feel there is not much difference in optical quality between the Eagle Optics Platinum Class Ranger and similarly configured Trinovid Leicas costing 3 times as much. They are worth a look.

[Wally Dog]

just buy a pair of Pentax 10x42 dcf-wp
ebay for $350 ish
you won't regret it.
WD

[AZ402]

I bought a pair of pentax 10x42 dcf-wp and I absolutely HATE them, don't buy them. They are terrible in low light situations. Save your money and get go with the Leica or Swarovski.

[1_pointer]

AZ- Give you $50 for 'em? smilies/biggrin.gif

[danr55]

Or would you rather have $75??

smilies/cool.gif

[1_pointer]

C'mon dan, you know I'm a poooooorrrrr student! smilies/wink.gif

Okay, I go $76

[danr55]

Hmm, I guess I should probably let you have them for $76.00, but ...??? Ok.. I'll let you off for that... Besides, I'd just give'em away or sell them at the gun show or something...

smilies/cool.gif

[1_pointer]

If your gonna give 'em away, I'll let you outbid me! smilies/wink.gif I know someone in UT that you could give them to! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ithaca 37]

Naturally, the best are Zeiss, Leica, and Swarovs.. The B&L Elites are surprisingly good, as are some of the other mid price range. When you're looking at the top of the line the quality differences in the lenses are so tiny nobody will ever be able to notice them. What does make a difference is other qualities---like how comfortable they feel in your hands (kinda like buying shoes or a bicycle), weight, balance, etc. and those are all individual preferences.

Everyone's eyes are slightly different and many have slight differences in color perception (like varying degrees of color blindness you may not even know about) and because of lens coatings some binocs may seem clearer or sharper than others. That's often an individual thing.

Never bother looking thru binocs in the store, except to get a feel for the comfort and weight. Store lighting varies from natural light and some cheap binocs actually have lense coatings that make them perform well in florescent lighting because the manufacturers know many uneducated customers will make their binoc decisions by looking at a wall fifty feet away in a store.

Insist on going outside. Do it at a few different times of the day so you get varying light---especially poor light. Use something for an "eye chart" a few hundred yards away. And be carefull you don't subconsciously remember what you're reading as you try different binocs. I put up "eye charts" (anything with print will do) at varying distances if there isn't anything handy to look at. You can just tape something to your car window and park in different spots in the parking lot or down the street. That's the best way. And vary the charts. Take lots of time over a few weeks if you want to spend your $ wisely.

I use Zeiss 10x40, 8x30 and 10x25 depending on what I'm hunting, scouting, or whatever else I'm doing. They work best for me, but I'd NEVER tell anyone what is going to be best for them. It all comes down to individual eyes and preferences.

That's why ya need a good store with lots of choices to shop at.

When I semi retired for awhile and took a few different jobs I thought would be fun to try I worked part time in the binoc dept. at Sportsman's Warehouse for a few months. I sold more expensive, good quality binocs than the other three full time employees put together and I did it by following the advice above. I especially liked taking the customers outside because it got me out of the store for awhile, smilies/biggrin.gif and they were usually amazed at the differences they could see in cheap VS good quality lenses. You can't tell anything by looking at the moose on the store wall forty feet away. smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-03-2003 13:40: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

[JoseCuervo]

Ithica,

Thanks for the response, and I have now made about 3 trips into Sportsman's Warehouse, and I haven't quite felt close enough to buying that I insist on going outside. And none of the guys behind the counter have offered it yet.

So I have been reading boxes upstairs over the fishing equipment on the back wall of the store. I agree, the B&L Elite seem to be nice glasses, and were pushed by the sales guy at SW. Is there a good commission on those??? smilies/wink.gif

I kind of keep drifting back to the Kahles 10x40, and trying to see if it is justified to spend more on the Zeiss or Leica or Swarvos.

What was your impression of the Kahles when you were selling them?

Thanks,
smilies/elkgrin.gif er

[Ithaca 37]

B&L and Bushnell do run sales contests from time to time so maybe there's one going on, but the Elites were always a good one to sell because they are good quality for the money and a good mid range binoc. Hard to go wrong with them.

We never sold many Kahles. I liked them but they were relatively unknown and most people were skeptical about something they had never heard of, so they were a hard sell.

Make sure you go outside.

Before you buy Zeiss or Leica check prices with Charlie at Workman's Outfitters on Vista in Boise. He carrys them and will often deal on price.

[Washington Hunter]

Elkgunner, what binoculars did you end up getting? smilies/confused.gif

[JoseCuervo]

Ended up going Zeiss 10x40 Classics. Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, Love 'em, smilies/drool.gif

I spent plenty of time this fall looking thru buddies' Swarvors and Leicas, and I did not have a regret. The Swarvo guys all liked the weight and feel of the Zeiss.

I can honestly say I SAW more Elk this year, and I think it is because I either enjoyed glassing for a longer time, or I was trying to justify the $$$$, but in either case, I did see more Elk than ever, so that is a good thing. smilies/biggrin.gif