What breed of dog? [Archive] - Hunt Talk Forums

1_pointer

11-14-2002, 05:45 PM

The wife and I are wanting to get another dog instead of having a kid right now. I'm trying to talk her into a dog I can use for hunting. I mostly interested in upland game, but there is a slight possibility of waterfowl. Is there a dog that is more suited to upland game, but can be also used as a decent waterfowler?? I was thinking Lab, but their the opposite.

Vizla? German Wirehair?

However, if I was to get a dog for just upland, which breed?

Elkhunter

11-14-2002, 05:48 PM

St. Bernard :D

Carnivore

11-14-2002, 06:02 PM

1_Pointer: You can open a serious can of worms with a question like that. Everyone has there own thoughts on the matter.
As for my choice, I have a german shorthair. Murder on upland birds, but she hates the water. Even though the breed is supposed to be good water dogs. My next dog will be a wirehair, who are also bred to be water dogs (more so than the shorthair). I just think they are so ugly they're cute. smile.gif
As for a lab; great family/duck dog, but they can't come close to the performance of a pointer. They have to hunt within gun range because they are a flushing breed. My GSP will hunt 75-125 yards out in front (depending on terrain) and go rock solid on point. She'll hold untill I get there. My choice would be the wirehair, but that's just my opinion.

Mike

Ithaca 37

11-14-2002, 06:20 PM

Pudelpointers are the best all around pointing/retreiving/water/upland dog. They have the highest average scores in NAVHDA testing. Also in the European testing programs. They're expensive though---$1000! GSPs and Wirehairs aren't too far behind in all around ability. If you want a dog that's going to be best for all around find a NAVHDA breeder. Most Western breeders don't breed for all around water and upland dogs. There are some real knowledgeable NAVHDA people around Ogden.

http://www.navhda.org/

"The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association is a nonprofit corporation whose purpose is to foster, promote, and improve the versatile hunting dog breeds in North America; to conserve game by using well trained reliable hunting dogs before and after the shot; and to aid in the prevention of cruelty to animals by discouraging nonselective and uncontrolled breeding, which produces unwanted and uncared for dogs."

http://www.versatiledogs.com/

1_pointer

11-14-2002, 07:19 PM

Thanks for the info. I'll chew on it awhile. My wife wants a Newfoundland for some reason. :rolleyes: Pudelpointer?? Hmmm. I guess I could name it ONE!!:D

[ 11-14-2002 20:20: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]

1_pointer

11-14-2002, 08:00 PM

Ithica, I was checking the photos on the Pudelpointers and now have a question. Why do some seem to have wirey hair on their bodies and other are smoother coated? Is this evident as a puppy? I like the Vizlas (both of 'em) looks as well. I'll have to see if my wife thinks they're cute! :rolleyes:

kiwi hunta

11-14-2002, 08:37 PM

If its any help Nz's use Waimariners and Vizlas as deer dogs as well as for upland game, great at pointing deer in heavy cover, the Gsp and Wirehair are right up there as well for hunting on deer and birds here.

Ithaca 37

11-14-2002, 08:38 PM

It's not very evident, although sometimes you can see what kind of coat is developing. The variety of coats is just one of the idiosyncracies of the breed. Same thing happens with Wirehairs.

Vislas are nice dogs. A little closer working than most pointers. Not one of the more popular breeds.

Washington Hunter

11-14-2002, 09:28 PM

My vote would be with the wirehair also. I have a GSP and he actually loves water, but only in the summer. If you can't talk your wife into a wirehair, try for a lab. Talk her into any breed other than a Newfoundland!

jig maker

11-15-2002, 05:22 AM

Find someone with a pointing lab and you have the best of both. I have 2 blk. labs and they both work well on upland and waterfowl. I worked them very hard in Kansas on Pheasant once with as maney as 12 hunters for a week we never lost a bird

Ithaca 37

11-15-2002, 07:51 AM

Try the Versatile Hunting Dog site message board for awhile for some interesting opinions on pointing labs etc..

danr55

11-15-2002, 10:24 AM

Most people are not aware that Poodles are great gun dogs. If they are taught to hunt upland game, they are excellent pointers and have a better nose than most. For waterfowl, the biggest problem is keeping them in the boat and away from the decoys. If you should be acosted by wolves, they aren't above tackling that situation either...

Ithicas suggestion of a Pudelpointer is an excellent choice. I have been a long time proponent of English Springers,(I don't think there is a better dog for upland game. Mine happens to be partial to hunting deer and elk also....) but if I get another dog, I may just get a Pudelpointer...

:cool:

[ 11-15-2002 11:25: Message edited by: danr55 ]

T Bone

11-15-2002, 05:07 PM

For upland pointing: I've only hunter over GSP's, and Brits. Both work well. I'm on my 3rd GSP now.

Upland flushing: I've hunted over Labs and English springers. The Labs' upland skills are secondary. ESS's do very well.

Any well bred dog whether it be flushing or pointing will be an excellent bird dog if enough time is spent with them.

T Bone

Carnivore

11-15-2002, 06:23 PM

T-Bone hits it on the head; spending time with your dog. Regardless of the breed you choose, the more time you spend with your dog pays big dividends. Educate yourself on training. Ithica mentioned a great web site. You can also go to www.uplandbirddog.com. (http://www.uplandbirddog.com.) It to has a great forum with lots of info. There's also plenty of good books to choose from. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, every one has there opinions on which one is the best. Good luck on the dog, regardless of the breed.
See you in the field!
Mike

Wolf4Skin

11-15-2002, 08:31 PM

Everyone has made some good suggestions. I would go with the lab if you are going to do any waterfowl hunting. They make awesome companions and if you are out of money for food, they will eat just about anything. As far as Gun dog sites go, I would also suggest this one: www.refugeforums.com (http://www.refugeforums.com)

This site can answer almost any dog question you will have.

Wolf4Skin

11-15-2002, 08:38 PM

By the way, here is a pic of my bird getting, eat anything, retrieve anything,chew anything, jump on anything and everything, food sucking machine.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid23/p63c660643a149d3e6db94a1aa7591bd4/fd9e42f1.jpg

1_pointer

11-16-2002, 08:05 AM

Are pointing labs, just lines of labs that have been bred for pointing? The pics I've seen, they didn't look to stylish doing it, but heck I'm not very stylish anyway.

4skin, you got a looker on your hands there. Congrats.

Ithaca 37

11-19-2002, 04:09 PM

The "pointing labs" I've hunted over just stopped when they got bird scent and looked in the direction it was coming from. It wasn't anything like a real point. You can teach any dog to "whoa" when it smells a bird, even a chihuahua. If you really want some opinions on pointing labs go to the dog sites and ask about them. It's always controversial.

Carnivore

11-20-2002, 07:57 PM

1 pointer,

If your passion is upland birds, get a pointing breed.

If you prefer duck hunting, get a lab.

As Ithaca stated, you can teach any dog to stop when they smell birds, but the key words are "YOU can teach". With pointers, it's all instinct. You just fine tune them to your needs.

Do the research before you make a decision. Go hunting with both types, see for yourself. If you lived close by I'd be happy to take you out.

Mike

1_pointer

11-21-2002, 07:49 AM

Carnivore- What part of ID do you live? I’m about 1.5 hrs. south of Pocatello. My problem is that I don’t know which I have a passion for as I’ve did neither, but feel that I’d enjoy upland more. I guess that’s why I’m leaning towards a versatile breed. I’ve found a few GWP breeders here and will check them out as soon as I can.

Ithaca- Did you get Scout from Bob Farris? I’ve read some GREAT things about his dogs and am sure the price reflects that also.

Ithaca 37

11-21-2002, 08:08 AM

Scout came from Dave Holley, another Pudelpointer breeder here in Boise. One of Bob's dogs sired Scout's puppies three years ago. She had seven daughters! :D

Calif. Hunter

11-25-2002, 02:44 PM

I would second Ithaca's suggestion that you check out NAVHDA breeders. Other questions I would ask are about you and your living conditions. Do you own or rent? Do you have a house or an apartment? How patient are you? What kind of temperament do YOU and your wife have? Does a hardheaded, macho, charge through anything type of dog appeal to you, or a more sensitive, cooperative, "where do we go now, Boss?" kind of dog appeal to you? I bred shorthairs for a number of years, and worked with some GWPs, Vizlas and Brittanies. All my dogs were NAVHDA tested and so were most of the pups I sold. (A NAVHDA membership was paid for with each pup out of the $$$ I received.)

"Most" bird dogs will require a lot of attention and exercise, and I heartily recommend that they live in the house with you. That is the best training and bonding you can give them. Then, get them exposed to lots of birds. There is nothing like seeing a dog running all out and going into point mid-stride. :D Good luck!

1_pointer

11-25-2002, 04:10 PM

Cali-

My wife and I just bought a house in Aug. Though the yard is not huge, it is fenced in. Plus, having the committment of exercising the dog will help me get into shape! I'm relatively patient, especially with dogs. I helped put myself through college by raising mini pins. A little yappy house dog will teach a person patience. My wife and I are relatively laid back people, not too much excitement outside of the bedroom that is! ;) Beings the dog will be in the house, I'd prefer not to have a macho dog.

You must me psychic (or is that psycho?;)) as I was gonna ask about the difference between getting a dog from an NAVHDA breeder or just one from the paper? Also, we already have a house dog, how do many of these breeds do around other dogs? Thank you guys for all the insite and help. I'm not gonna rush this, as I want to do it right and am not looking to get the dog until summer to give ME time to get ready and more knowledgable.

Ithaca 37

11-25-2002, 04:32 PM

1 pointer, I'd recommend getting ahold of Val out at the Ogden refuge and watching & helping him do some dog training for a NAVHDA test. They'll probably have one in the Spring. He can be telling you all about the benefits of dealing with reputable breeders. Stay away from the back yard breeders who claim they have great dogs and puppies but don't have any credentials to prove it!

Calif. Hunter

11-25-2002, 04:35 PM

A lot of the whole point of NAVHDA, as you can read from Ithaca's post, is to promote good breeding among the various versatile breeds. They push testing pups for natural ability as well as trained dogs. They also look for effective hunting dogs as opposed to wide-running field trial dogs. My next dog will probably end up being a Brittany spaniel, as they are usually a "softer" dog, temperamentally, and a little smaller than most other versatile breeds. They do have longer hair which can shed.

By effective hunting dogs, I mean dogs that really want to please you, and are cooperative hunters rather than solo atheletes like field trialers. You want a dog that will check back in once in while, range out far enough but not too far, change directions when you do, etc. I think that a "NAVHDA bred" pup has the best chance of doing that, especially if it is repeat breeding of a successful previous match between sire and dam.

Ithaca 37

11-29-2002, 09:25 AM

I was just visiting the Versatile Dogs site for the first time in a few months. They have some interesting topics going!

http://www.versatiledogs.com/

1_pointer

12-02-2002, 08:48 PM

I see many of the dogs from NAVHDA going for $600 and up. Is this about the going rate for a decent gun dog? If so, I might be outta luck as I don't think I can spend that much on a dog.

Ithaca 37

12-03-2002, 09:12 PM

That's what you usually have to pay for a dog from parents that have proven their hunting ability in a series of tests. Sometimes you can find NAVHDA dogs for less. Sometimes you can get a dog from the pound that will turn into a good hunter. It all comes down to how much you're willing to pay to increase your odds of getting a good dog. Look at it this way---how much a year is it going to cost you if the dog lives 12 years?

You really should spend some time around as many knowledgeable hunting dog people as you can before making such a big decision about what to get and what to pay. You should try to hunt over a few dogs, too. Any chance you can get to Boise before January? Even if you don't want to buy a bird license you can walk along with me and watch some hunting.

[ 12-03-2002 22:14: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

1_pointer

12-04-2002, 09:35 AM

I may have to take you up on that! There's a few here I'm going to try to go out with and watch their GSPs. I didn't realize how much was involved in a bird dog. I'm extending my time table, so I can be a bit higher on the learning curve when I take the plunge.

You're right, $600 is nothing over 10-12years, plus I'll have more than a student job soon so it won't seem like that much.

Calif. Hunter

12-04-2002, 09:53 AM

$600 seems high to me, but I haven't been selling pups for over 10 years now. Back then, I got $250 for GSP pups from proven Utility-tested parents and repeat breedings where the previous pups had been Natural Ability tested. Sometimes the more "exotic" breeds like Pudelpointers, Griffons, Vizlas, etc. go for more than "normal" Shorthairs.

Carnivore

12-04-2002, 10:37 AM

You're still in the right ballpark CH,

Shorthairs will normally go for $250-$500 depending on bloodline. Like you said, it's the fancy named one's that get pricey but that sure don't make them better hunters.
It's just like paying more for brand names.

I've hunted with so called 'high dollar' champions and I was'nt impresssed at all. I've also hunted with a well trained half breed that was the best dog I've hunted behind. It's all in the handling and training. I'm not sure if my dog is full blooded, I rescued her from an abusive home, but she has a great nose on her and points like the best of them. She don't have faults, I do for not spending more time on training, be we still have a great time in the field.

Find a breeder, and ask if the parents hunt. If so have them take you out and watch/hunt with him. If he's a man of his words, he should'nt mind showing of his dogs.

Ithaca 37

12-04-2002, 05:51 PM

If you have two parents that have proven hunting ability, intelligence, and willingness to cooperate you have a better chance of having those traits in the pups. That's what testing or field trialing can show.

Other than that, if you just take some guy's word for it that he has a great dog and his hunting buddy's dog he bred it to is a great dog, too, you're taking your chances.

You have to decide what you want in a dog and then look for those kinds of parents. Not everybody should have a dog that has field trial ability---it might not match his hunting style. That's why I favor the NAVHDA testing for my style of hunting.

All you're doing when you do all that research is learning about dogs, breeders, hunting styles, and increasing your chance of getting a good pup, but there's no guarentee. Most dogs with any ability can be turned into a decent hunter if you spend lots of time at it. And I mean LOTS. Hundreds of hours of training and exposure to birds over the first two years.

Carnivore

12-04-2002, 06:13 PM

I think it shows you can add $250-$500 to the price of a dog for having a certification, but it wont gauruntee your dog will be a good hunter.

I believe the dogs upbringing(training) will determine it's ability in the field. But hey, if people want to keep spending big dollars for proven(?)dogs, more power to them. But int he past 2 months, I've seen three dogs(all having high pedigrees/certifications) end up being complete busts. The best one was a big dollar Vizla. The owner got the dog back from the trainer and now he's gun shy, of course they did'nt know if he was gun shy before hand. The dog does'nt have a clue whats going on in the field even after three months at a pro trainer.

1st I would question the trainer, and than fault the owners for not spending the quality time with their dog. I know the dogs first year in the field is for his learning purposes only; to get him into as many birds as possible. But it does'nt change the fact that know they're stuck with a dog they can't use, a so-called proven dog.

Ithaca 37

12-05-2002, 12:38 AM

You mean they never shot a gun around the dog before they sent it to a trainer?! They should have been teaching the dog not to be gun shy long before it went to a trainer.

Not all dogs have good enough noses to be good hunters, no matter how much time they spend in the field. Ability to smell is an inherited trait. Field trials and tests weed out dogs that don't have a good sense of smell. They weed out dogs without other desirable traits, too. They weed out dogs that don't have the intelligence to go thru advanced training. They weed out dogs that don't have the natural drive needed to be the best hunters. They weed out dogs that don't like to retrieve. They weed out dogs that don't like water. They weed out dogs that don't have athletic ability. That's what field trials and tests are for---to find out which dogs are the best ones to breed.

Take a dog from proven parents and a dog from unproven parents and put the same amount of training and field time into them both. Which one has a better chance of being the best of the two?

Many hunters have never even seen a good hunting dog, by field trial or test standards. A lot of it comes down to what your definition of "good" is.

I've seen many guys who claim they have a great dog go to a test or a field trial and be amazed at what they see dogs there doing. They had no idea what a good dog was! All they really knew was that their dog found more birds than they could have without it.

And everybody loves their dog, so unbiased opinions are hard to come by. Test and field trial judges try to give educated opinions of dogs.

Any dog will eventually flush a bird if it runs around and sniffs enough bushes.

[ 12-05-2002 02:11: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]